PATCON: The FBI's Secret War On The Militia Movement w/ Ken Silva

[00:00:35] Today I am joined by Ken Silva. He has been covering some craziness lately, including the

[00:00:46] most recent incident going or happening with Trump. And so we might touch on that just a little

[00:00:53] bit about it, although that is not what we are here today for. So how you doing today Ken?

[00:01:00] I'm here in kind of a puffy, uh, a parents' voice. oh, we're, let's see here and not

[00:01:10] hear myself speak. That better.

[00:01:15] Let's see. Yeah, I think we're good now. Okay. Good. Let me know if there's anything.

[00:01:23] No, but I'd like a 10 second delay and then I just trying to make sure all of you find people have the best audio possible. Also, a double mic is not something anyone can listen to. That's terrible.

[00:01:36] Let me leave and come and see if that does anything. Okay, perfect. So today we will be discussing Pat Con.

[00:01:45] We're going to get into the history of the FBI and their involvement in counter terrorism.

[00:01:52] All right. Is that any better? Yeah, and you know, I'm so stupid. I'm sorry. I clicked on the YouTube link you sent me. And so it's into the show while I talk to you.

[00:02:04] That makes a lot more sense. Sorry. That's my bad. No, you are good. Okay. It does sound better on my end as well. So I think we are good to go. All right. So, all right. So Ken, how you doing?

[00:02:18] I'm better now much better now. All right. Thanks for your patience. Hey, anytime.

[00:02:25] So let's just dive straight into it. Who are you? Sure. I'm a reporter. I've been a reporter for about a dozen years now.

[00:02:38] But I've only been doing politics in this national news for maybe two years. I started off locally in Ohio got a job real quickly in the Caribbean after about a year.

[00:02:49] I thought I'd maybe spend a year or two down there before I went back to America, launched my career in earnest.

[00:02:56] But I had up spent eight years in the Caribbean and kind of just messing around and working at various newspapers until I came back in 2021 and around that time.

[00:03:09] We were talking off camera. I read a book called Avery Asian in the Heartland of the Real, which is sort of this like 800 page.

[00:03:18] Super deep biography of Timothy McVay. And that led me kind of down this journey of reporting on FBI corruption and mouthbees and just overall, you know, terrorizing local population in America.

[00:03:34] And I've kind of made that into my beat over the last two years or so.

[00:03:40] So what was it that drew you to the subject of the Oklahoma City bombing?

[00:03:49] I had been a Ron Paul guys since 2008 and I had listened to some podcasts with Scott Horton where he'd play old audio of, you know, the people talking about explosives being in the building and in early reporting like that.

[00:04:06] So I was kind of like always skeptical a government and then I just saw a bunch of people talking on Twitter about this book Avery Asian.

[00:04:15] And to be honest, it was like, it's simple enough is the cover looked really cool. It was like, Timmy to make pay but he's got a demon horns and kind of a snake running through his skull.

[00:04:25] And I bought the book on Kindle. I was in Brazil at the time and I just, I think I read like the whole the first night I read like six hours straight from like midnight to the party and I couldn't put it down and I really I've been reading or writing or talking about that case and everything surrounding it pretty much ever since they're over two and a half years now or so.

[00:04:53] So the Oklahoma City bombing actually does tie into the overall topic in which we're going to cover today.

[00:05:06] So but before we get into that.

[00:05:10] Okay, Pat Con what what is Pat Con what should people know what's what's the timeframe that we're talking about here.

[00:05:19] Okay, yeah. So our main subject today is a Pat Con which was an undercover FBI operation in tailing undercover FBI agents pretending to be Nazi bank robbers and this ran in technically it ran as an official operation from 1991 to 1993 but a lot of the same undercover agents and informants were active for a much longer time period than that.

[00:05:49] And it does it ties into the Oklahoma City bombing ruby ridge wake up and I'm sure we'll get into that.

[00:05:58] But I guess that would be the simplest, you know, Pat Con in a nutshell.

[00:06:04] It never, a lot of people don't know about it because it never resulted in any major arrest so essentially you just have these undercover FBI agents roaming the country.

[00:06:18] Spine on other groups and the yellow there's no no criminal case made from it so is essentially giant domestic surveillance operation on America's far right wing.

[00:06:31] So what what was the justification for caught a little bit like starting the program.

[00:06:37] That's a great question and yeah, I'll give you a little bit of the backstory for how Pat Con was launched in the first place and so in the 1980s there actually was legitimately a dangerous and organic right wing terrorism.

[00:06:54] And basically this is born of the atmosphere of the early 80s when Paul Volker and a lot of libertarians like to talk about how Paul Volker, the Federal Reserve Chairman defeated inflation by jacking up interest rates.

[00:07:11] And that's true and it was a necessary measure but he actually triggered something of the farm crisis in the 80s.

[00:07:20] It wasn't, you know, a mortgage crisis in 2008 or savings loans and the late 80s.

[00:07:26] This is manifested itself in the farming crisis and at one point you had a farm a day closing down for like two or three years in the Midwest.

[00:07:36] And a lot of these guys became radical right wingers as a result.

[00:07:41] One particular guy who I've written a lot about was Gordon Call, he became a tax pro-tester he is traveling the country, telling all his buddies about how the income taxes and constitutional.

[00:07:53] It funds things antithetical to our values it's funding all these foreign wars and abortion and other things we disagree with.

[00:08:01] And so I'm not going to pay taxes, I'm not going to fund this and basically the government targeted him for his political views.

[00:08:10] They tried to set up a roadblock with US marshals to capture him in the early 80s he got into a shootoff killed two of the US marshes became a fugitive in like the right wing underground for a good three or four months.

[00:08:24] He kind of became a hero and the FBI eventually caught him and basically wake him they burn him to death for my understanding of what happened investigating the case.

[00:08:38] And it was a response to Gordon Call's death that a group like the very next month a group called the order was created where all these.

[00:08:48] You want to call him neo-Nazis or white nationalists or whatever but they launched an actual terrorist group that.

[00:08:58] It's explicit goal is robbing banks to fund a right wing revolution and they cited Gordon Call as one of the reasons that they were doing what they were.

[00:09:09] The FBI takes out the order but in doing so they create a giant domestic counter terrorism apparatus and I believe Pat Con was basically a continuation of that where they took out the order and now they've got millions of dollars of funding from Congress.

[00:09:26] But not much really to do with it and so they kind of have to create their own right wing domestic terrorism problems for them to present the solution to justify the giant budget that they had coming out of the 80s.

[00:09:43] That's kind of my theory of why it was launched.

[00:09:47] And then of course there is nothing more permanent than a temporary government program and so it kind of just never went away.

[00:09:57] It sounds like.

[00:09:58] Yeah that's probably the most charitable explanation I could give the other one you could say is the FBI took out the order but they tried to.

[00:10:08] Prosecutor, a lot of people connected the order they actually had like the first sedition trial at that point since World War II and of people are used to sedition trials now with the oath keepers and proud boys were all charged with sedition after January 6.

[00:10:24] But at the time this is a really big deal in the 80s as 1987 and the government lost that case it was really embarrassed.

[00:10:31] And so one might argue that the government launched Pat Con after they were embarrassed at the sedition trial as a way to get revenge.

[00:10:40] That's a bit more conspiratorial of a take but I think it's actually very plausible as well.

[00:10:48] Well and I believe also being a Scott Horton fan I've listened to quite a bit of his take on it and I've also had him on the show.

[00:10:59] And he had mentioned something about the FBI also having some internal problems being exposed for different things drug use.

[00:11:13] Different sorts of domestic problems with their agents and having been accused and proven that a lot of their agents had been directly targeting non white citizens because they were non white citizens just being just shitheads all around just terrible people and.

[00:11:37] That they were basically like you would said embarrassed and it kind of seemed like they were getting a bunch of embarrassment all the way around.

[00:11:49] Yeah I think that was certainly the case with ATF and Waco those some scandal in.

[00:11:56] Year or two before Waco happened it was found out that like these ATF agents were I don't know if they're in the clan or what but they were definitely explicitly racist and I'm not an expert on Waco.

[00:12:09] I in itself I kind of just know how it fits in and more broad historical context of pack on but I do remember Scott talking about how the ATF they might have wanted to do.

[00:12:22] You know make a big case with Waco to kind of distract from the racist that you know the scandal of their agents being card carry raises.

[00:12:32] So at at the end of the 80s they it seemed like they.

[00:12:38] Took care of their problem that was justified or the took care of the reason for the justification.

[00:12:48] And I guess somebody who doesn't know about this it is confirmed that this program did exist is that correct.

[00:12:58] Oh yeah there's FBI records that's have the Pat Con acronym on them and these came out I think from tearing nickels.

[00:13:10] Stake trial one of the Oklahoma City bombers some records came out and then there's a Utah attorney named Jesse trying to do who has been suing the FBI.

[00:13:19] And so I think that's the first thing that's been done for records about Pat Con for 15 years now and one of the informants from Pat Con actually came out as a whistleblower.

[00:13:29] And testify or was going to testify for Jesse in one of his trials which is a whole whole another tangent but yeah this is.

[00:13:39] And even argues that Pat Con doesn't exist it's definitely exists the only question is was it a domestic spine program or wasn't at something more nefarious was it actually designed to provoke right wing violence.

[00:13:56] And I it first I might have let lean towards the former but I would probably tend to lean towards the latter after studying it for the last two years.

[00:14:06] So it began in the mid to late 80s and then what what is the the role of Pat Con in the 90s because it kind of seems like that's where really picked up steam.

[00:14:19] Yeah just yeah I wouldn't call it Pat Con in the 80s because I do think the FBI's response to the order was warranted.

[00:14:29] Pat Con I'd say you could argue it started probably in 1988 maybe because or 87 is when Andreas Strasmeyer comes into the country and he's like this.

[00:14:40] German guy with a lot of intelligence connections seen with McVay thought to be by thought to be by.

[00:14:48] Many in undercover intelligence asset but yes so Pat Con officially starts in 1991 and I think the investigatory rationale was they're they're probing.

[00:15:00] Still in military equipment a lot of the reserveists and veterans were stealing night vision goggles and other equipment from their bases and selling it in gun shells and these kind of underground.

[00:15:17] Right wing swap meets so that was kind of the justification for why they launched it.

[00:15:24] And for for anyone who either wasn't there or doesn't remember the militia movement kind of like very rapidly grew in the 90s.

[00:15:38] So that they kind of just seemed like it all played into it so do you believe that that was because of this or was a natural growth and then they kind of just piggybacked on that.

[00:15:54] Part of the reason for the militia movement was the atmosphere of the 80s which you got to remember was also during a rain contra and they were sending all these private soldiers of fortune down to Nicaragua.

[00:16:08] So there was a lot of private militias just because of like I ran contra and weird stuff like that which might have something to do with the 90s militia movement but.

[00:16:21] I wouldn't say Pat Con heavily energized the militia movement because I think there's a lot of organic interest in that, but I could tell you that if they basically subsidize the growth of the area nations which is.

[00:16:38] And so there's a lot of people who are right.

[00:16:39] Sect that believes in Christian identity and is them, you know they think.

[00:16:44] There are the true Israelites Jewish people who don't have souls black people they call but people.

[00:16:51] And this group was basically dismantled by the FBI by the end of the 80s.

[00:16:56] They were very much Aryan nations.

[00:16:58] The order those bank robbers was like an offshoot of Aryan nations so a lot of ties to domestic terrorism with this group and they were basically in shambles after the sedition trial in the late 80s.

[00:17:15] But in the early 90s after the FBI launches Pat Con the group comes back on to the map in big time they I think they were down to like three state chapters and by 1995 they were all back in.

[00:17:28] 50 states and thanks to the great author aberration in the heartland of the real Wendy painting she provided me an excerpt of an interview.

[00:17:40] She did with one of the Aryan nations members from that time who said that F the FBI was spreading cash everywhere like they wanted to make sure that.

[00:17:48] Neo Nazi skin had in Philadelphia could make the world Congress in Idaho so they were funding the travel and everything and it was basically.

[00:17:59] The I've got an article on it at the Libertarian Institute in fact it really looks like the FBI purposely subsidized the Aryan nations in the 90s just to put it back on the map and inflate the so called Nazi threat.

[00:18:43] So they destroy the Nazi threat.

[00:18:43] And they're coming back there are worried that the Nazis were trying to start the order again, but I've got a book I've got it right here I could show it up.

[00:18:52] A book from an Aryan nation sky.

[00:18:56] This is after the Oklahoma city bombing he I'm reading this and one of the informants from Pat Con is quoted not in this capacity as an informant in this book but he's presented as a real.

[00:19:08] Aryan nations member and he's talking about we should we need to start the order again and start robbing banks and I was shocked because this book was written before the Pat Con records were made public.

[00:19:21] So you know you combine this book with the Pat Con records and you see clearly that their own informants were trying to start the order again, I mean it's just absolutely insane.

[00:19:32] So after stuttering studying it for so long what what do you believe was their justification for kind of stoking the fire I guess.

[00:19:45] Oh that's that's a question I still haven't really come to a firm answer on I would give the innocuous reason that they've got this you know they take down the order Congress is giving them money for domestic terrorism and they need to create cases.

[00:20:01] I don't think it's that simple but I just I probably couldn't articulate what I really believe intelligently so I'll leave it at that for now I think you know it's a big sting operation they want to create.

[00:20:15] Not see like the Whitmer plot you know these setups you kind of plot and busted before it happens make good headlines get promotions everybody goes on happy.

[00:20:26] Well in that that is something I wanted to touch on is that.

[00:20:31] This is still going on which is kind of where our conversation started as well as some newer articles that you would come out with which we will definitely talk about at some point.

[00:20:44] As that kind of spurred this idea of doing the show.

[00:20:50] But it seems as though they haven't stopped even though.

[00:20:54] Have they come out officially to say that it ended kind of like they did with MK Ultra they were like well it ended but in actuality there's plenty of evidence that it never did.

[00:21:07] But no they've never said that and they've never even acknowledged Pat Con publicly.

[00:21:15] But you're very much right it it's never ended like I said the official operation called Pat Con closed in 1993 but a lot me and a lot of other researchers still use that word just because it's a pretty appropriate you know Patriot conspiracy kind of is a good way to describe.

[00:21:36] Kind of a 30 year phenomenon where the FBI has been provoking right wing violence and we know it still going on because what are the informants that was in the area nations coming out of the 90s is still at FBI informant in the right wing movement is names Joshua Caleb Sutter.

[00:21:57] And he what he became kind of internet famous a couple years ago when it was revealed that he was an informant who runs a satanic bookstore down in South Carolina and he's made more than a hundred thousand dollars in his career working for the FBI.

[00:22:16] So basically the FBI's subsidizing satanic literature.

[00:22:22] And there's a lot of details that we could really get into if you really want to dig into the history from 1995 to current day.

[00:22:31] But one of the key actors the people should know his name is this Joshua Caleb Sutter guy because he you know he carries the story forward in a big way.

[00:22:40] On and swear it always comes back to the satanic at one point or another in all of these stories.

[00:22:46] Yes, it's really really interesting studying it.

[00:22:52] It's because with the order in the 1980s there was a big conflict between the Christian identarians and pagans like the head of the order was Bob Matthews and he was into the European area and bloodline.

[00:23:10] So there's an organism type of religion and it kind of split you kind of fracture the right wing movement to a minor extent in the 80s where the Christians were fighting the pagans.

[00:23:24] And you kind of had that on steroids today or instead of Christians versus the pagans, it's kind of the Christians and pagans on one side.

[00:23:32] And then the satanists are either infiltrating the right wing groups or it's some cases they're actually forming alliances but yeah the dynamics of these various.

[00:23:46] Strings of ideology and how they they fight each other are just another thing that worth studying when it comes to cases.

[00:23:58] So before we get to too far along into the the 2000s and up up to today what what was Timothy McBase connection at any to a lot of.

[00:24:11] The militia movement or people that could have even been Pat Connid Jason.

[00:24:19] Okay, yeah we should probably spend some time on this because I think this is the probably the most important thing about Pat Conn is that a whistleblower who worked in Pat Conn has an undercover informant came out around 2010 and said that.

[00:24:35] Basically the FBI was monitoring McVay leading up to the bombing as part of Pat Conn.

[00:24:45] So the the informant John Matthew says he saw Timothy McVay with Andreas Strauss Meyer at a militia training exercise in 1994.

[00:24:57] At the time he didn't know the significance of McVay but after the bombing happens he sees McVay's face and was like whoa that's the guy I saw with Andy Strauss Meyer.

[00:25:09] So he calls his handler agent and tells him this and the FBI agents is oh we already knew that were on this and to the informant that.

[00:25:20] That meant to him that they had been monitoring McVay for some time and they get gets a lot deeper than that though because.

[00:25:28] Okay, Strauss Meyer as I said was a German guy with weird intelligence connections including to Israel. He somehow winds up in a white supremacist kind of compound slash property called Elohim City in the early 90s where McVay was also seen including by the FBI visiting there.

[00:25:54] Now this is where it gets really weird because at Elohim City that was kind of the hideout for.

[00:26:01] It's an area in bank robbery gang not one that we've discussed this wasn't the order and it wasn't the undercover FBI agents.

[00:26:10] This is a separate gang called the area in Republican army, but yes they were inspired by the order and I've got real questions of whether they were like a Pat Con operation or whether they were actually real.

[00:26:24] You know a diehard Nazi who actually believed what they were reporting to believe.

[00:26:31] So Strauss Meyer is an Elohim city and he was actually roommates with one of these area in bank robbers and temporarily roommates with at least two others.

[00:26:44] So you've got McVay's connections to Strauss Meyer, Strauss Meyer is connection to these bank robbers and then to top it off you have letters from Timothy McVay to a sister where he says I'm actually in a gang and we rob banks to fund our activities.

[00:27:00] He sent her some bills to Launder.

[00:27:04] So the belief among researchers I trust as well as my own research is that McVay was probably participated in several bank robberies with this this area in Republican army to help fund the bombing.

[00:27:20] And all this was done right underneath the FBI's nose at Elohim city you could cut me off if you have more questions but I'll keep going for now.

[00:27:32] Another thing that people need to know about Elohim city is they had an undercover informant there the ATF did named Carol Howe she warned her handlers and like January 95 that Andrea Strauss Meyer and these area in Republican bank robbers had been case.

[00:27:50] And they're seeing the murder building their casing federal buildings is local home a.

[00:27:55] Planting to attack and she was ignored and and the attack obviously went off and killed 168 people including 19 babies.

[00:28:06] We know this is true because Carol how they later tried to arrest her on explosive charges and her handler testified at her trial that yes it was true Carol warned us about the attack.

[00:28:16] So I know a lot that's a lot of different names of connections but I mean it's all related to Pat kind of at all points it's some kind of sting operation that probably went wrong and which is why the bombing at Oklahoma city happened.

[00:28:33] So the FBI, correct me if I'm wrong that the FBI at some point had involvement with the bank robbers is that correct.

[00:28:44] Yeah, and no, at what point did they get involved was that before Oklahoma city or was that more after.

[00:28:54] I believe it was before again, it gets even weirder.

[00:28:59] Yeah, Pat kind of always.

[00:29:01] Yeah, these undercover agents in Pat kind of were pretending to be a bank robbery group called the veterans area.

[00:29:08] But importantly you had the area in Republican army you just asked no when did the FBI actually infiltrate these guys and when did they know about them.

[00:29:17] Well, the thing about that is the area in Republican army leader was a guy named Peter Langeon who had been a secret service informant.

[00:29:30] So Peter Langeon.

[00:29:33] He was arrested with Richard Lee gothory or he was arrested on his own for robbing a pizza hut he goes to jail and the secret service tells him hey we'll make you an informant if you help us catch your buddy Richard Lee gothory.

[00:29:47] who is threatening to assassinate George Bush at the time.

[00:29:52] The Langeon agrees to become an informant they let him out of jail, but somehow they lose track of them and he supposedly goes rogue and creates the area in Republican army and then they go on to have connections with the fae rob 19 banks hundreds of thousands of dollars to fund the area nation and other groups.

[00:30:12] So an informant did start that gang and the question was is the government story true.

[00:30:21] Did he really go rogue or was the government kind of letting him do that because they knew they'd be able to create this big case out of it.

[00:30:30] There is one damning FBI record where a jailhouse informant warned the FBI that Langeon when he was in jail was saying if they ever let me out I'm going to war against the government and they let him out anyways so.

[00:30:46] That's pretty compelling evidence that they do about this from the very beginning and this was an operation.

[00:30:52] I don't know if that for true, but I think what I just told you it sounds pretty damning to me.

[00:30:58] Well, it's not that much of a leap either though is the thing it's it's not like that's this huge fantastical claim with what is known what is proven and also there.

[00:31:15] They're.

[00:31:18] They being the FBI their history of doing certain things like this, which is also proven in other aspects.

[00:31:28] At this point I do believe that it is it is known for a fact that people like Charles Manson were easily let go intentionally.

[00:31:41] Even even though he should have been locked up several times over and so I don't think it's that big big of a claim to say that the FBI either.

[00:31:54] Let them out intentionally or well it seems like more intentional than it was incompetence at that point just because of what they could possibly benefit from.

[00:32:07] Yeah and that's funny you mentioned Charles Manson because there are some similarities between Manson and Peter Lange and not in terms of violence actually Lange it wasn't a violent guy neither were the bank robbers they never hurt anybody and all their robberies they're actually.

[00:32:26] No, sorry as neo Nazi bank robbers go they're kind of a fun loving group who had busting to banks and where the president's masks and you know make jokes about it says dumb stuff like thank you very much on their way out.

[00:32:41] Kind of just like goofy clown guys but Lange was the son of a CIA agent and he was in Vietnam and he was on top of an NBC rooftop when the monk burned himself to death this is all in a book written by an Indian University criminologist called Mark Ham the book's called Inbad Company.

[00:33:03] But Lange and describes being like a five-year-old boy it's smelling the burning flesh he would come back to America after Vietnam and he becomes very troubled child taking LSD as early as like 12 years old which it get son of a CIA agent doing heavy LSDG what does that sound like.

[00:33:27] He eventually gets sent to prison like age of 16 and gets raped in a men's prison and now eventually he was apprehended after the bank robberies and now he is actually the first prison in Maine in history to get a taxpayer funded sex change his names donna now he's like a transgender rights champions.

[00:33:49] I just say that all to you know strike the manson comparison where these are incredibly suggestible and damaged people who have been done heavy drug use and are heavily traumatized so.

[00:34:03] Sounds very plausible to the government could have been running this guy as an asset and he just didn't know that I don't think that he was like cognizant of.

[00:34:14] That he was like a undercover double agent or something like that but I think he's taken advantage of.

[00:34:20] Well and they they don't really have to be aware of a lot of these things for the intelligence community to benefit from running people like this so I mean the it kind of seems like.

[00:34:37] Even if it was started with the best of intentions you know the road to hell is paved with good intentions but.

[00:34:47] If they were trying to create the problem justifying their paychecks and therefore even growth of the organization itself.

[00:34:59] Letting somebody out like this regardless of what they're trying to do I mean there's there's motive you know and they've done it with other people before so I really don't think it's that big of a big of a step to say that.

[00:35:14] That's most likely what happened yet and even if even if they didn't do it on purpose the cover we know they covered it up.

[00:35:22] Because they didn't prosecute any of the bank robbers for helping fund the bombing because if they would have done it that would have been an admission the hey our own informant help fund the bombing at the very least people would have been fired.

[00:35:35] People in the government probably would have gone to jail too so even those an accident the cover ups real and it's inexcusable.

[00:35:43] Well and it seems like a lot of people had made their career off of the the results of wakeo Ruby Ridge Oklahoma City a lot of these things and so instead of being reprimanded.

[00:36:00] They got a career out of it and moved up moved up the latter including our current city and attorney general.

[00:36:09] It's kind of ironic yeah after January 6 he gets a appointed as Biden's AG and says white supremacism's the greatest threat to America and that's going to be the justice department's priority.

[00:36:22] Well that's the same guy who helped prosecute McVay in 1995 and 96.

[00:36:29] And so I think our friend Richard Booth raises you know makes a great point when he says if you really want to focus on white supremacism finish the work you were doing 30 years ago and.

[00:36:42] I think the artist the Nazis who killed 168 Americans on April 1995.

[00:36:49] I mean that should be his first job before he does anything about January 6 let's do actual real terrorism.

[00:36:57] Yeah, so I do know that there was a plot to target the the same Mariah building federal building in Oklahoma City before.

[00:37:11] Did that was that related to all of this.

[00:37:15] Oh, that's a great question thanks for reminding me that yeah like in 1980 three or maybe it was 84.

[00:37:24] 85 yeah it was a group called the covenant the sword and the arm of the Lord I think was the name CSA and they had kind of a the parent military camp.

[00:37:36] And I think it was kind of close to Elohim City.

[00:37:43] There's the it was in that area in those arcs and they were pretty or they were an organic legit right wing extremist group that had ties to the order.

[00:37:53] I think a guy named Randall Rainer he was like the armor for CSA eventually worked for the order and help.

[00:38:02] Many factors some machine gun that was used in one of the orders assassinations of a Jewish radio host.

[00:38:09] So yeah that.

[00:38:11] They were pretty organic and they did have real ties to the right wing extremism group and the case you referenced is.

[00:38:20] They did have a plot to attack the mirror building in in the 80s they were got they're going to use a dump truck and shoot a missile out the back.

[00:38:30] But when they're building the bomb one of the guys blew it so hand off and they took that as a sign from God to not do this plot a lot of those guys.

[00:38:42] We're still has direct connections to McVay a 10 years later when the mirror building was attacked.

[00:38:50] Specifically the most interesting guy I think people need to know about his Richard Wayne's now who was a member of the CSA and he.

[00:39:00] Eventually murdered a black Arkansas state trooper and goes to jail for that gets the death penalty.

[00:39:09] And he on April 19 1995 was the day he was set to die so one feeling is that the Oklahoma city bombing might have actually been retaliation for them killing Richard Wayne's now on that day as opposed to other theories like.

[00:39:28] The Waco revenge for Waco but the most interesting thing about snow is that on April 1995 the day that he's he's going to get a lethal injection.

[00:39:39] He's saying hey turn on CNN something big's going to happen and then the bombing goes off and he's so happy like I told you.

[00:39:48] And then later in the day he tells his last words are you know Oklahoma's governor I wouldn't trade places with you for anything of the world.

[00:40:08] But this is a very important thing that we're looking at the work that is going to be a lot more interesting to say to you.

[00:40:28] in jail. But yes, so that's kind of your connection from that 85 CSA plot to 10 years later.

[00:40:37] Again, just every rock you are under turn from that time leads back to the Oklahoma City

[00:40:44] bombing. It's pretty fascinating. Well, and I'm not sure if this has anything to do with it,

[00:40:51] but there at one point was, I believe it was a woman who had authored a book.

[00:40:59] And I believe it was a fictional book about an attack on the exact same building.

[00:41:07] The person had been caught and was even named Timothy McBeay and she had authored that book beforehand.

[00:41:14] I believe that was the brother, you're asking all the right questions. First of all,

[00:41:19] I'll mention that these plots to attack federal buildings is based off of a book called The Turner

[00:41:25] Diaries written by William Pierce. There was a far right wing white supremacist guy who wrote this.

[00:41:33] I think in like the late 70s, this kind of the inspiration for a lot of these people.

[00:41:39] But the book you're referring to is written by Oklahoma Governor Frank Keating's brother,

[00:41:45] like a couple years before the attack. And the guy, yeah, it's like,

[00:41:48] there was like James McBeay was the character's name. E-E-E-Y and the attack of the bomb,

[00:41:57] the attack to building in the same way that actually happened.

[00:42:02] And yeah, I don't know what to make of that, but it's just, it's really strange.

[00:42:06] And I think we should also mention that Governor Keating was a former FBI agent.

[00:42:11] So I mean, this kind of stuff will make like when you tell people this for the first time,

[00:42:16] you just sound like an absolute nutter. All this is true. People could go find the articles about this

[00:42:23] on the libertarian institute. There's like articles from the Washington Post about, oh,

[00:42:28] is it this a crazy coincidence that the governor's brother wrote a novel describing what would happen?

[00:42:33] I mean, it's stuff that'll make you go crazy if you're not the approach it.

[00:42:39] So was the variety?

[00:42:43] Yeah, it's I highly recommend the archive over at the libertarian institute. And I think

[00:42:50] when we're done with this, I'll make sure and include that in the episode description because it's

[00:42:56] it's an incredible archive of just everything you can possibly think of. It raises way more

[00:43:02] questions than it answers anything. Is there any thought behind John Doe number two and his

[00:43:15] possible involvement in this? Oh, are their thoughts? Well, initially let's just say explain to John Doe

[00:43:24] number two is he's the guy seen by over 20 witnesses on the day of the attack April 1995

[00:43:33] in the writer truck with McVay. This is kind of not even disputed anymore really like people

[00:43:43] even liberals who study this will say, yeah, John Doe to exist there were others involved.

[00:43:49] The government initially put out a giant man hunt when they caught McVay they said, well hey,

[00:43:55] John Doe to still a large there's a clip of attorney general Janet Reno talking about this.

[00:44:01] And again the question is why did they never catch John Doe to or why do now the DOJ's official

[00:44:07] position as he doesn't exist? And I think the most reasonable explanation is that he was some kind

[00:44:14] undercover government agent and I used the aid the word agent purposely because if this guy was an

[00:44:20] informant, I think the government would have just burned him and either killed them or thrown him

[00:44:27] in jail for something else without admitting their mistake. But as far as who this guy might be we're

[00:44:35] really don't know. A lot of the area in Republican army guys were early suspects for being John Doe

[00:44:43] one specific guy Mike Bresha looks like him and looks a lot like him in black and white kind of

[00:44:50] a younger guy that lifted at the time. But if you look at him in color he's very pale so

[00:44:57] he couldn't be John Doe too because John Doe too was described as almost Cuban looking.

[00:45:02] Now we really don't know who he is but we know that he exists in the government almost sabotaged

[00:45:09] their investigation into him on purpose. I mean at one point they accused Terry Nichols 12-year-old

[00:45:16] son of being John Doe too and what she used. Yeah when they did that they halted the

[00:45:24] investigation for like a week when they thought for sure that Terry Nichols kid was John Doe too

[00:45:30] and so the investigation pretty much went cold when they made that mistake. Now why did they do

[00:45:36] that maybe they're trying to pressure Terry Nichols into cooperating? We don't really know but

[00:45:41] it did ruin the son's life. The son's in jail now in Las Vegas for like he's like a career

[00:45:47] criminal and drug addict but I think is I mean his own father ruined his life but the FBI

[00:45:53] certainly didn't help by accusing them of being a terrorist. Yeah I bet I couldn't even imagine

[00:46:00] trying to live a life or get a job after that. It's you couldn't. Yeah it's just highly unfortunate.

[00:46:11] So what what was the overall connection with Terry Nichols? Because it it I mean it seems just

[00:46:22] strange considering at least to me it's obvious that there was a lot more intelligence

[00:46:33] involvement in this than obviously the official story would like anyone to believe.

[00:46:44] So was Terry Nichols more of a bystander was was he organically involved or is there any

[00:46:52] connection with him? Yeah Terry Nichols you could say was organically involved I think. He was

[00:47:00] in McVay's military unit which bizarrely was an experimental unit and by that I mean they set up

[00:47:11] a unit specifically where once you're in it the same people are together for their whole

[00:47:17] tour of duty. I was never in the military but it's my understanding that you bounce around a lot

[00:47:23] and you might be with some guys for three months and then you'll move across the country

[00:47:30] and meet a whole new set of faces. That wasn't the case with Nichols McVay and another

[00:47:36] accomplice Michael Forty-A they're all in the same unit for the whole their whole tour through

[00:47:42] Iraq war going to Germany they kind of grew really close together and the guy who wrote the

[00:47:49] book about Peter Langan said if not for this experimental unit you know the bombing might not have

[00:47:56] ever happened because they wouldn't have formed such close bonds in any event that's how they all

[00:48:03] got to know each other and from what I've read Nichols was a very meek and suggestible

[00:48:10] guy who you could bully so I think McVay kind of used him to do a lot of his dirty work

[00:48:18] and the most when you ask about you know connections to intelligence assets the spookiest

[00:48:26] thing I can tell you about Terry Nichols is that he was the guy who McVay sent to Rob his supposed

[00:48:33] friend from a gun show circuit a guy named Roger Moore Terry Nichols went to his house

[00:48:42] and it was supposed to rob this guy he was a millionaire or rob all his guys and in jewels to

[00:48:48] help fund the bombing and Nichols later said he got there and it basically Roger Moore handed him

[00:48:54] the stuff and said hey get out of here. It found that very unusual but it's not as unusual when

[00:49:01] he realized that Roger Moore was actually a CIA asset involved in Iran, contra a built boats for the

[00:49:09] CIA and the 70s and early 80s was in that one of these malicious that went down to Nickaragua

[00:49:16] it's a very very tied into the CIA he was also an FBI informant and the feeling was that

[00:49:23] that was part of the sting operation where he gave Nichols all that stuff to fund the bombing

[00:49:28] with the goal I guess they were trying to stop it but yes I don't know if that answers your

[00:49:36] question exactly but that's just a little bit about Nichols and his run-ins what's various

[00:49:40] intelligence agents. I think he was a guy that kind of got bullied into something way over his head

[00:49:48] and he's still in supermax now but unfortunately they won't let him talk to the media or anybody

[00:49:57] so it kind of seems like he was a useful idiot. Yeah he was probably the fall guy where

[00:50:03] when people say hey or other people be signs McBeay involved the official story you could point

[00:50:10] at well they're in Nichols too and then you know leave it at that. Yeah yeah it does seem

[00:50:17] pretty convenient for the official story anyways. And I should mention that we know for a fact

[00:50:23] he was in Kansas on the day of the bombing so he could not have been John Doe to and he wasn't

[00:50:28] even directly involved in the attack. He helped build the bomb as what he did. So I feel like you can't

[00:50:39] talk about Oklahoma City without mentioning Terence Ehe or Kenneth Trinidadu so first Terence Ehe

[00:50:53] what is your personal opinion on on this situation? Yeah Terence Ehe was one of the first responders

[00:51:03] to the bombing and he later was telling people around him you know the official story isn't true

[00:51:11] and something a lot darker happened. He ends up dead. I what is it? 97. He's found in a field

[00:51:19] I think supposedly shot himself cut his own wrist walk like a half a mile.

[00:51:24] Grangle themself. Yeah just obviously he was murdered and I think he was probably had

[00:51:31] information about John Doe too and Richard Booth and Jose Galeeson talk a lot about how he had

[00:51:39] two VCRs at one point he borrowed somebody's VCR and they think that he was trying to copy

[00:51:46] some of the surveillance tapes because at the time you play the one tape in the VCR and

[00:51:51] you play your blank tape to get it copied over. So that's kind of this theory of what happened with

[00:51:59] hekey I got to say I'm not an expert on that case because it's kind of more about the aftermath

[00:52:05] of the bombing and the low-cost happen. It doesn't really directly tie into Pat Con about Kenneth Trinidadu

[00:52:14] So where does he come in and just for anybody curious I will have Jose on at some point to talk about

[00:52:25] all of this as well but also make sure and go check out his channel No way Jose.

[00:52:32] Him and I have been doing a series on false memory syndrome and all of that nonsense and but he is

[00:52:43] he covers the Oklahoma City bombing in a very unique and but very informative way he's like one of

[00:52:51] the guys one of one of a couple of hand-fuls so make sure and go check out his his channel

[00:53:00] so Kenneth Trinidadu how how does he tie into this because he's he's just like e-key where

[00:53:09] it's just seems like a really unfortunate accident as the the feds would have us believe but

[00:53:18] it's no accident. Yeah Kenneth Trinidadu just found himself in the wrong place at the wrong time

[00:53:26] He grew up hillbillion West Virginia was a really fast him and his brother were like star track runners

[00:53:35] they go over to California they both were you know top athletes in high school he eventually

[00:53:43] signs up to go over to Vietnam but at the time I apparently he developed some kind of drug problem

[00:53:48] and to kind of satisfies his urges he robbed banks went to jail for that in the 80s this is

[00:53:57] nothing to do with terrorism or anything he was just a kind of a low-level criminal at the time

[00:54:03] but he did turn around his life but in the early 90s after he turned around his life he caught some

[00:54:12] very minor infraction a parole violation I think you he went down to Mexico with his wife from

[00:54:21] Mexico and was coming back and and I violated his uh to be this probation and for some reason they

[00:54:29] sent him to the Oklahoma City Transfer Center just very bizarre for them to do that to a California

[00:54:35] inmate for a minor infraction and there this is August 95 he supposedly kills himself but at

[00:54:44] like yeke he it's all the hallmarks of a murder I think he he was even like injected with caffeine

[00:54:50] to like wake him back up he had be he's on the bottom of his feet so what the hell is going on here

[00:54:58] and what does this have to do with Pat Con or the Oklahoma City bombing uh and in the 90s we still

[00:55:05] didn't know his brother Jesse Trinidad was fighting the government uh for you know assuming the

[00:55:11] government for the wrongful death he eventually wins a million dollars but he still doesn't really

[00:55:16] know what happened he just knows that something went terribly wrong but he gets a message supposedly

[00:55:22] from Timothy McVay saying that the reason that your brother was dead is because the government

[00:55:28] missed a come for one of the people in the area in Republic and Army they thought he was one of

[00:55:33] Nazi bank robbers and his death might have been an interrogation gone wrong or they might have

[00:55:39] murdered him because they thought he was one of the undercover informants who could have compromised

[00:55:44] their whole case in any event Jesse Trinidad was told that his brother's death had something

[00:55:49] to do with the bombing he took that with the grain of salt I think he got some kind of phone call

[00:55:56] from a guy he didn't even know until the early 2000s a journalist named J.D. Cash called him

[00:56:03] with the same information and said Jesse are you sitting down you know your brother did he have

[00:56:09] a dragon tattoo on his right arm how big was he uh the basically J.D. Cash put together the dots saying

[00:56:16] that your brother probably represent uh resembled Richard Lee Guthrie one of the area in bank robbers

[00:56:24] who by the way also ended up committing suicide in quotes in prison days before he was going to

[00:56:31] be interviewed by the LA times uh so that's Kenneth and the significance of him beyond all what I

[00:56:40] what I've just told you is that his brother is a badass retired marine turn lawyer one of the best

[00:56:47] lawyers in the country who it basically dedicated the next 20 years of his career to just suing

[00:56:53] the FBI for records about pack on and the area in Republic and Army and all these issues in an attempt

[00:57:01] to solve his brother's murder and just to get revenge for what they put his family through and it's

[00:57:08] a lot of what Jesse's uh the records that he's gotten has kind of underpinned a lot of what I

[00:57:15] told you today and I I believe he is uh still selling or selling sorry it's reading that word

[00:57:24] he's still suing the the federal government all for this I believe in the incorrect yeah he filed

[00:57:30] a lawsuit earlier this year for records on Roger Moore the guy the Terry Nichol supposedly rob but

[00:57:38] who in fact is a CIA asset and he filed a lawsuit for records on the area in Republic and Army

[00:57:44] specifically for any records where the FBI is investigating whether the the Republican army was

[00:57:53] involved in the bombing so if that lawsuit he filed because they've been ignoring the

[00:57:59] the FOIA request he filed like 10 years ago the far more interesting lawsuit uh has been going on

[00:58:07] for like 20 years and in fact he was going to have one of the Pat Con informants testify for him in

[00:58:14] 2014 about about the FBI monitoring McVay ahead of the bombing uh the night before the trial though

[00:58:22] the informant backs out and tells Jesse that the FBI threatened him and told him that you're you're

[00:58:29] going to be a homeless Vietnam vet if you testify for Jesse or ruin your life and Jesse filed

[00:58:36] complaint for witness tampering and that's been under investigation for nine years now almost

[00:58:44] 10 years the court is actually appointed a special master which is a federal judge that's appointed

[00:58:51] specifically to investigate a specific issue within a larger case so the special master has been I guess

[00:59:00] hearing from what Jesse's complaints versus what the FBI has to say about the matter

[00:59:05] and he's eventually going to draft a report and release it publicly and we're going to know what

[00:59:11] happened with this case and whether the FBI did threaten one of its Pat Con informants

[00:59:19] that could come out any day I'm not expecting it to come out before the election but like I said

[00:59:24] this case just that witness tampering allegation is nine years old about so we should get something

[00:59:30] hopefully soon yeah I think it's absolutely incredible he's spent his life

[00:59:39] dedicated to finding that what happened with his brother um honestly I'm not much of an emotional guy but

[00:59:48] both of those stories it just hits you right in the feels um it's it's uh incredibly sad

[01:00:00] and both both men genuinely deserve the truth to come out so hopefully even just keeping people

[01:00:12] aware of these cases by talking about it like this I think is incredibly important

[01:00:17] um and what so it kind of seems like there there's also just a trail of bodies kind of

[01:00:30] left behind whether they're stuck in prison or no longer with us so do you believe that this is

[01:00:43] to tie up the loose ends I can't think of any other reason I mean I I don't know that for a

[01:00:52] fact it could just be random acts of incompetence but yeah I just can't think of an alternative

[01:00:58] explanation it's all these people that know information that's very damaged at the government wind

[01:01:04] up dead um yeah I think I think it's pretty self evident at this point especially after

[01:01:12] recent cases like you know Jeffrey Epstein and then things like that no so after um Oklahoma City

[01:01:22] where where does things go from there obviously it seems like things were pretty quiet

[01:01:30] for a bit but and now they're not it it seems like I would say ever since maybe

[01:01:41] well ever since 2016 I guess with with Trump um white supremacist white nationalists or

[01:01:49] Nazis whatever have been public enemy number one artificially so in my opinion but

[01:01:57] somewhere between there and after okay see what's what's going on with Pat Con in between there

[01:02:07] the interesting thing about Pat Con is I think it might have been designed to even be bigger than okay see

[01:02:15] not more deaths but I think there might have been a plan to bomb a series of federal buildings and

[01:02:22] the book I held up it touches a little bit about that um it talks about there was a plan to attack

[01:02:30] I think the Earl cable building in Dallas is the Dallas federal building so there were as

[01:02:36] like an assortment of characters who were still floating around in 96 97 98 and so on but

[01:02:44] I just think a lot of the steam was knocked out of the movement due to all the dead babies

[01:02:48] and nobody wanted to be involved even the most hardcore Nazis were like hey this is ridiculous

[01:02:56] and furthermore I think a lot of the steam was knocked out of it after 9-11 you know yeah they

[01:03:02] up by just diverted most of its resources towards targeting Muslims but to get to your question

[01:03:14] there were still many undercover operatives in informants in the Nazi movement in the late 90s

[01:03:20] in the early 2000s one guy Jose and I just interviewed as David Gletti he became an FBI

[01:03:28] informant in 96 and he told us that the FBI wanted to flood the field with informants after the

[01:03:36] bombing to make sure it didn't happen again which sounds really plausible to me because I think overall

[01:03:43] like the FBI Pat Con was run out of main justice like it was probably just a couple guys in DC

[01:03:50] who knew about it but I think most of the field offices in the FBI were shocked by the bombing

[01:03:55] and so they all activated a bunch of informants to try to prevent something from happening again

[01:04:01] but as you say things were very quiet until I would say things started picking up closer to

[01:04:10] Obama's candidacy you had a lot of really racially motivated Nazi protests where

[01:04:18] they were printing flyers saying kill this n-word you know spelling it out though with the picture

[01:04:24] of a news really glowing stuff that I also think was organized by the FBI and now when we

[01:04:32] we could get into that today if you want to you want to do another show talk a whole open

[01:04:38] a whole no other can of words with what happened in like the 2000s and beyond yeah I definitely

[01:04:44] want to do another show at some point because I think this to be able to have people understand

[01:04:52] this and like the true depth of what we're looking at because this entirely affects

[01:05:04] our country which shit rolls down hills so so I definitely want to do another

[01:05:12] another show at one point and I think this is important to cover kind of what led up to all

[01:05:18] of that because we're going to have a lot more people remember Obama in his presidency

[01:05:26] and also his presidency was was a turning point so I think we let let me know what you think about

[01:05:34] this but we should kind of end on that and then we can pick that up next episode as well

[01:05:45] but just to kind of I guess close up the Oklahoma City

[01:05:56] obviously this this would be your opinion or any speculation but what do you believe personally

[01:06:06] is like the overall motive for whatever took place I think a lot of people had a lot of

[01:06:16] different motives I think the FBI probably was motivated to do a sting operation where they caught

[01:06:24] they were egging on these Nazis to commit a bombing and they were going to stop it at the last

[01:06:30] minute I think some of the Nazis were true diehard believers who really wanted to carry out the

[01:06:37] attack regardless of whether they knew they were infiltrated or not and then if you want to get

[01:06:44] a lot darker I think there might have been a couple people who actually wanted it to happen

[01:06:49] within the government and I'm still not sure if you asked for an overall motive I don't know which

[01:06:56] one of those are the most dominant I guess at this point I would lean towards the story of the FBI trying

[01:07:02] to do a sting operation and fail in miserably we know there are at least two writer trucks involved

[01:07:09] in the attack and I believe based off of reading people like Wendy Painting talk in Richard Booth is

[01:07:18] that the FBI had a tracking device on rope one of the trucks but the Nazis knew it and drove the

[01:07:25] truck with the tracking device out somewhere to cause a wild goose chase all night the night before

[01:07:32] the attack while McVay and John Doe too drive the truck up to the murder building that morning

[01:07:38] and you know they blew up the building obviously so I think that would be my best guess of what

[01:07:44] actually happened and you know why was the FBI fooled maybe there were some undercover agents or

[01:07:53] operatives in that movement that were actually told hey actually we're going to fool the FBI

[01:07:58] and let this happen and why would they do that I mean there's a million different reasons I think

[01:08:05] they've initially some people wanted to blame it on Saddam Hussein and start you know

[01:08:10] you'll get in like 9-11 before 9-11 or whole rationale the launch campaign in the Middle East

[01:08:17] there's comments from Bill Clinton about hey this really saved my presidency after the bomb

[01:08:22] it knocked the steam out of all the right wingers who are criticizing me for Waco and everything

[01:08:28] like that could have been the government trying to the actual law enforcement agencies trying

[01:08:35] to look better after Waco saying hey you know we might have fucked up at Waco but

[01:08:41] these guys are dangerous and we still need our jobs because look at what happened with Oklahoma City

[01:08:47] those are just a couple ideas I'm still rustling with. Personally I think the last thing that you said

[01:08:57] is kind of paint themselves in a better light definitely plays a plays a part in it

[01:09:07] I don't think that that makes sense for the entire thing or their involvement but

[01:09:14] before that I mean they had such a negative public perception they were they were being really

[01:09:24] dragged through through the mud and I mean who who knows they could have lost funding

[01:09:34] you know could have been tussized which I would be in favor of I'm sure most people would

[01:09:40] you know we could turn quannico into a dog park and I'd be okay with that you know

[01:09:49] but I think that definitely had something to do with it that turns public perception around

[01:09:54] 100% there you know the the public is now demanding that they have somebody like the FBI

[01:10:02] around which they shouldn't even exist in the first place based upon you know their their

[01:10:10] conception they were never meant to be permanent especially like this so it definitely seems

[01:10:18] very plausible to me that they wanted a better public perception also just secure more funding

[01:10:27] and possibly even grow I think that's what bothers me the most is that it seems like through

[01:10:37] Pat Con they are creating their their own reason for existing I think the the institution is aware

[01:10:48] that they shouldn't exist and that they don't really need to exist but if there is this big

[01:10:56] scary boogie man out there then it's required for them to exist yeah it's pretty scary that we're

[01:11:04] kind of reliving this exact same atmosphere today where you've got a lot of people on the right

[01:11:11] who are willing to consider defunding the FBI or downsizing these agencies kind of doodering them

[01:11:19] and so you've got to wonder you know what if what we're saying has been true then they still have

[01:11:26] that same playbook and what are they planning now to win the public back over to their side I

[01:11:32] one of the things I saw like 10 minutes before we started talking is they're trying to blame

[01:11:37] a ran for an alleged plot to kill Trump and I got to imagine that's it might be some kind of way

[01:11:44] to be like hey yeah we messed up trying to kill the president but it was actually this foreign

[01:11:50] agency so we got to rely on the FBI to prevent you know Iran for killing the president

[01:11:57] so that's that's just one one thought that first came to mind I'm certainly not reporting that

[01:12:02] or any of you. Yeah yeah I think that's incredibly interesting because of what you had just said

[01:12:10] that there was you know some people trying to blame Saddam Hussein for Oklahoma City or just

[01:12:20] trying to tie that incident with his name I mean that people trying to tie what had happened

[01:12:29] with Trump to Iran well first of all it doesn't look good as it seems like there's this

[01:12:37] group of neocons who are always constantly trying to find a way to go to war with Iran and it's

[01:12:46] been that way my entire life any chance they get they try to drop the drop the name of that country or

[01:12:55] some some leader from that country to be able to drum up public support to go to war with them

[01:13:04] that's that's incredibly scary and we also know that they did they do these things I mean as

[01:13:12] it's far back as Woodrow Wilson who had hired Edward Bernays to change public perception to sell war

[01:13:21] so that's once again not that far of a leap to make and I think it's incredibly interesting

[01:13:28] they're still trying the same thing yeah it's just hopefully the American public finally wakes up to it

[01:13:37] it's the last couple days I've seen a lot of good good good takes coming from people in terms of

[01:13:43] being suspicious about there's a federal government but you know how the public is you could

[01:13:49] the next big thing happens and everybody totally buys into it and all the sudden they have

[01:13:54] the starling of the right again I mean that's that's exactly what happened in the 90s

[01:14:01] the right way there's hated the FBI then after 9 11 they all cheerlead as the decade campaign

[01:14:08] of entraping Muslims so you know okay could hope but I'm not really holding my breath

[01:14:15] I think we're probably just have to wait until the system collapses under its own

[01:14:21] under its own bullshit yeah

[01:14:24] so I did actually want to when I ask you what what other parallels do you

[01:14:32] see happening now between what has already happened obviously we just mentioned the iron thing

[01:14:40] but do you notice any other parallels either with the incident that just happened with Trump or

[01:14:48] any other recent incident? As far as Trump goes I mean I think we got to look at MK Ultra and this

[01:14:59] shooter I know he had a discord channel and a lot of these mass shooters have had discord channels

[01:15:06] and they've all been they've had contact with feds and there's questions of whether these people

[01:15:12] were kind of groomed or encouraged to do these shootings so that's one thing that I'm looking at that's

[01:15:18] not really a historical parallel as much that's kind of a new frontier but the biggest thing that's

[01:15:25] going on right now that smells like Pat Con is the gun running the the ATF operation fast

[01:15:33] of furious which says very much going on today we have whistleblower they don't get much coverage at

[01:15:39] but basically the ATF is allowing illegal gun sales why we don't exactly know but they're pretty

[01:15:50] much you've got informants at gun stores calling up the ATF saying hey some guy from with sinilo

[01:15:57] a license plates just came to my Arizona gun store but 20 ARs and now he's heading back to Mexico

[01:16:05] he lied on the forum what's bus to sky before he escapes the country and the ATF will take

[01:16:12] that to the US attorneys and say hey let's make a case in a rest of the sky real quick and the

[01:16:19] DOJ the US attorneys offices are saying hey well the nexus of crime is Mexico these guns are

[01:16:25] going to Mexico so it's not really our problem just absolutely insane this has all come out in a whistleblower's

[01:16:32] book a Peter for celly i think it's called the deadliest pat uh really great book but that

[01:16:39] that's still going on and one of the gun stores from fast-of-furious like 2012 was also involved

[01:16:48] in Pat Con according to the whistleblower informant he said that during Pat Con they were

[01:16:56] illegally converting rifles into automatic and selling them to like gangs on purpose and we don't

[01:17:06] know why hopefully more information will come out when the when the special master issues is report but

[01:17:12] that's the biggest thing is it's the ATF these operations they're very much still ongoing

[01:17:21] so i think we'll wrap up here and kind of lead into the next episode but so you would just come out

[01:17:31] with part one in part two an incredible story of what seems like the continuation of Pat Con

[01:17:44] um do you kind of want to give uh it's an ops is if uh you know what what kind of story are you

[01:17:53] trying to tell oh yeah I love to uh basically i'm trying to tell the story they're not trying

[01:18:00] I it is the story of Pat Con never ended and I didn't set out to tell that story but it kind of just

[01:18:07] stumbled into a court document by court document basically the story you're referring to as part

[01:18:14] one of um the hidden history of Robert Mueller's right wing terror factory a Mueller was the FBI

[01:18:21] director from I think like September first 2001 like a week before 911 all the way to 2013 or so

[01:18:30] basically i found an FBI informant told me that the FBI was instructing them to stage neo-nazzi rallies in 2005

[01:18:42] um and it's not just his testimony I've records proving that the FBI and its informants were holding

[01:18:49] these rallies and this this predates Obama a little bit so uh it's almost like the FBI was trying to

[01:18:58] re-stoke naziism even though it was still going pretty hard on the Muslims it was also i guess diversifying

[01:19:05] its portfolio or or kind of dipping its toe back into these right wing counterterrorism cases

[01:19:13] but so the FBI holds a series of Nazi rallies and that was designed to raise the prominence of

[01:19:19] its own informants who would go on to infiltrate other groups and make even bigger cases

[01:19:25] in like the 2010-11 and 12 era and then a lot of these same characters and groups would go on to

[01:19:34] march and commit violence at charlots bill and some of them are still active to this very day so

[01:19:42] yeah there's there's a lot to get into there but that's kind of the story in a nutshell

[01:19:48] so Robert Mueller who famously got a name with the i guess the average American do to

[01:20:00] investigating the Trump Russia collusion which of course there was no evidence of even with

[01:20:09] millions of dollars being spent hundreds of millions I believe and so it is is it fair to say that this

[01:20:22] was confirmed that Pat Con even if it's not by that exact name is still continuing

[01:20:35] that even at this moment well that's certainly my argument I guess it would be for the readers

[01:20:42] to decide once they read my work whether i prove my thesis or not but yeah I certainly think that

[01:20:51] after Pat Con officially ended around 98 is when the informant whistleblower stopped working for the

[01:20:59] FBI it's still maintain operatives and informants and they were kind of just collecting and

[01:21:05] tale intelligence for the FBI there wasn't many cases being made but it was around the Obama era

[01:21:13] is when a Pat Con began an earnest in terms of actual sting operations one of the more interesting

[01:21:20] ones as part two where I talk about the FBI launched a literal neo-nazi motorcycle front group

[01:21:27] tied again to the area nations which has decimated once in the 90s they launched Pat Con and it

[01:21:35] gets back on the map then after the bombing it's decimated again by the early 2000s it's in total

[01:21:42] shambles but then the FBI launches this motorcycle front group one of the

[01:21:48] sensible rationales for that was the the motorcyclist the bikers would be paying dues and that

[01:21:55] would help you know finance the area nations again that didn't quite work out the area nations is

[01:22:03] still just a kind of a group in name only it doesn't really exist it's something like one guy

[01:22:10] was the trademark right now he lives like in a mobile home but that to me I think that's basically

[01:22:17] it was directly Pat Con I mean undercover FBI agents posing as areas terror as except this time they

[01:22:24] were outlaw bikers instead of you know the bank robbers of the 90s I believe it's it was definitely

[01:22:31] Pat Con and everything but the official title now who is David Glettie what is his connection

[01:22:42] David Glettie was an FBI informant who organized a Nazi rally in Orlando in 2005

[01:22:52] a year later or maybe you know the organized in 2006 a year later after he helped

[01:22:59] set up a couple Confederate hammer skins in another separate case his cover was blown

[01:23:06] in open court and a reporter for the Orlando Sentinel once he heard the name David Glettie

[01:23:12] he realized oh that's the guy who signed the permit to organize the Nazi rally a year earlier

[01:23:18] so the Orlando Sentinel runs a big story saying FBI informant organized neo-Nazi rally

[01:23:25] and at the time the FBI I think an agent testified in court that no he might have signed the

[01:23:33] permit and marched in it but the FBI is not doing these kind of things they don't actually organize these

[01:23:41] I've actually tracked down the informant just a couple months ago and he told me a whole

[01:23:46] other story that yes the FBI actually did instruct him to hold that informant or to hold that rally

[01:23:53] so the informant Glettie basically implicated his handwear and purgery

[01:23:59] first of all second of all you know the Glettie he told me in Jose a number of just

[01:24:06] jaw dropping revelations about how his work with the FBI which ran from like 96 to 2006

[01:24:15] and we've only got one or two criminal cases worries involved and the rest of the time he was

[01:24:20] basically acting as a spy and yeah I think people should go check out Jose's show for more

[01:24:26] details on that interview but one of the most interesting characters I've ever spoken to

[01:24:33] yeah I would definitely agree with you there other than speaking with him but listening to him

[01:24:40] that was it was absolutely incredible before we wrap up I did want to bring your post up

[01:24:48] you would post it a one minute clip from the interview you and Jose did I wanted to play that

[01:24:57] for the audience real quick hopefully it entices them more I would be surprised if they weren't

[01:25:04] already enticed but we'll wrap up on this but I thought I was incredibly interesting so let's see here

[01:25:14] let's make sure all right but in my family knew so when I got exposed it was a big deal for a

[01:25:24] little while I'm all over the news CNN my hometown newspaper was a big deal because at the time the

[01:25:30] FBI just before that was happening put on Nazi protest and there was Nazi protest going on across

[01:25:37] country that were handled by the FBI and operatives like myself and now when I took to step out

[01:25:44] there because I had to get the permits in my name if you check the records the permits for the

[01:25:50] Orlando Ford and Nazi protest in 2005 was in our sex was in my name and I was all of the newspaper

[01:25:58] and people that knew me was like oh my god what happened at David Galetti I used to go out with him

[01:26:04] in high school you know my mom's like David went up to you I just saw the newspaper you haven't a

[01:26:11] Nazi protest I didn't rage it like that and I was all in that was the first time you know when you get

[01:26:18] your picture in the newspapers or Nazi and you're having a Nazi protest you're all in I had events

[01:26:24] at my home that I still let it have to hold it so that that was a clip from the interview

[01:26:35] with you and Jose of No way Jose with David Gletti make sure and go check that out

[01:26:44] listeners and viewers it's just a one minute clip and even that was just jaw dropping

[01:26:54] how how did you feel hearing that so I what's that track done I did just an interview over the

[01:27:01] phone with him and he told me basically everything he told Jose and I just like oh I would

[01:27:07] gotta get this guy on video so everybody could hear it because if I quote him and write it from my

[01:27:14] article yeah that's great but I think psychologically it's just hits on a different level when

[01:27:20] you see it coming from his mouth and yeah absolutely amazing one of my biggest questions is why

[01:27:28] this guy isn't being called by house Republicans to testify they're supposedly want to do all

[01:27:35] this stuff about FBI accountability but then they go on these wild goose chases about you know

[01:27:43] spying on school board parents but you know the legitimate issues but nobody got thrown in jail

[01:27:48] no parents are jail because of that nobody's dead because of that they shy away from the real stuff

[01:27:55] I think they need to be talking to a guy like David Gletti well it definitely kind of seems like even if

[01:28:02] you know these parents at school board meetings and stuff should be something that they

[01:28:07] investigate it kind of seems like this is something that they actually need to focus their energy on

[01:28:14] um where's in you know the school board meetings I mean depending on the situation I'm not

[01:28:24] even sure they're involved in outside of a local law enforcement is even needed in certain cases so it's

[01:28:31] like even if it is this seems way more pressing and with even though they still have tons

[01:28:39] resources it's not unlimited although I guess it could be but they should be focusing what

[01:28:48] resources they have on this which supposedly you know white supremacists and Nazis are enemy number one

[01:28:58] so it kind of is interesting while they're uh why like you guys can get this and he's not being

[01:29:08] called in front of congress like you just said it's crazy it's crazy and I even had supposed

[01:29:13] FBI whistleblower called the guy I have fraud and people are trying to downplay and I you know I

[01:29:20] piece total total speculation but I think what's going on here is this mid 2000 stuff was also

[01:29:27] heavily promoted by Israel and we all know the GOP's and Israel's pocket and I don't just say that

[01:29:34] one of the undercover agents who is in the motorcycle front group literally was sent to Israel

[01:29:40] uh to be trained and that the ADL had its own informants at those Nazi rallies in Orlando and elsewhere

[01:29:48] so the cheese to be almost like a joint ADL FBI operation in my opinion and I think that might be

[01:29:57] I won't throw them under the bus but one journalist with a million followers initially reached out

[01:30:04] and what expressed interest in covering these Nazi rallies and I send them all the documents

[01:30:11] and everything and then I sent he asked me uh well is is that our groups like the ADL and

[01:30:20] SPLC being used as front groups by the FBI or it's like kind of intelligence cutouts

[01:30:26] so well I think it's actually kind of the other way around it's Israel using the FBI as a cutout

[01:30:32] and I never got a response. I think I might be a little bit about a little bit of what's going on there.

[01:30:39] Yeah I mean that would stand to reason um that's even though

[01:30:47] what we know now that still seems to be something that most journalists don't want to touch with a

[01:30:52] 30 foot pole and alright I'll do my Kanye West all this is it was Michael Schellenberger the

[01:30:58] way from it. Well I mean come on guys be better.

[01:31:07] Schellenberger still does good PR for the new. Yeah I think you can let real investigative journalists handle

[01:31:15] the good stuff I guess. Yeah I mean that's one thing I will say is

[01:31:21] alright fine you don't want to cover it well get out of the way of the people who do

[01:31:26] so. So just to finally wrap up where does Part One and where where does Part One of your story end?

[01:31:38] Part One of the Robert Mueller terror factor yeah. Yeah that ends so after the Nazi rallies

[01:31:44] the informant that Jose and I spoke to David Gletty kind of becomes a famous guy in Florida

[01:31:50] everybody knows him from the rally and that helps him infiltrate a group called the Confederates

[01:31:56] Hammer skins which they're I guess you could call him white nationalist guys but they're not really

[01:32:02] ideological they're just kind of skinheads who like to do coke and they go to work five days a week

[01:32:09] and just turn it up on the weekend like like nobody else and you know he planted the idea

[01:32:18] two of the skinhead leaders heads to rob drug dealers and so the idea was like you go you buy

[01:32:27] coke from the drug dealer or 5 p.m. you come back at midnight and then at 4 a.m. on that third visit

[01:32:33] is when you do the robbery when the drug dealers are used to you and so he helps set up to the Hammer

[01:32:39] skins they go to court and that's where his cover is blown and it was after David Gletty's cover

[01:32:45] was blown that the FBI decided to launch the motorcycle front group which is where part two begins

[01:32:53] and then part two the motorcycle front group case eventually expands to target

[01:33:00] yet another group called the American front which was a supposed white supremacist militia in

[01:33:07] Florida that was allegedly training for a race war and that's going to be subject of part three

[01:33:14] another total FBI set up but hopefully I'll have that done by the time the next time we talk.

[01:33:21] Yeah I think that's interesting the race war thing because that's also come up in FBI history

[01:33:31] before that goes back Charles Manson and yes and this is directly under Robert Mueller and I believe

[01:33:38] like the whole I guess the punch line apart three is that if this is a successful patcon op

[01:33:45] it might have knocked the steam out of the Trump movement before Trump was even a thing because

[01:33:51] this was like 2012 2013 I mean imagine if the feds got a bunch of Nazis in Florida to go out and

[01:33:59] shoot up black people or Jewish people like the political atmosphere would have been made toxic

[01:34:06] before Trump was even a candidate. Why do you think because at least from my perspective and my

[01:34:17] the the way that I've seen things it doesn't seem like this Nazi thing is taking hold very well

[01:34:25] obviously there are some people that are always going to believe this but

[01:34:30] you know on on the macro scale it doesn't seem like I would say a large majority of people are

[01:34:38] buying it. Unfortunately I'd probably have to disagree with you there and recent years I think

[01:34:45] the Nazi movement is actually a prison I do see some organic growth assuming that some of the

[01:34:53] intellectual thought leaders are organic it will be careful who I'm talking crap about but I mean

[01:34:59] in our old friend Pete Kenyoun is from the libertarian institute he had to leave because now he's

[01:35:06] pretty much a card carrying national socialist and not calling him a Nazi as an insult I think

[01:35:12] he wouldn't mind that label and so I think you got a lot of people off ramping from the wrong

[01:35:18] poll movement to a more extreme Nazi movement basically their their argument is like we're trying

[01:35:26] to be libertarians for over a decade but people hate us and want to kill us just for being

[01:35:33] white so we got a fight back and use the state against our enemies instead of just being

[01:35:38] kind of pass of this so like there is an argument to be made I think that ultimately

[01:35:46] backfires I mean look the the original Nazis try to do that in Germany and the forties and they

[01:35:53] got totally cocked so I don't think it's necessarily a bad or a necessarily a great strategy but

[01:36:00] I do think there's there are some like actual people who are getting into the ideas just because

[01:36:07] that's that's what happens when empires fail a lot of people turn to communism or Naziism

[01:36:13] or other fringe ideologies because what we have now certainly isn't working

[01:36:18] yeah most definitely and just just for clarification I definitely agree with you that there

[01:36:25] seems to be organic growth even though I think it seems like the organic growth is maybe

[01:36:35] supplemented within organic growth but the the clarification comes with it doesn't seem like

[01:36:46] the vast majority of the public is buying that Nazis are really this big of an issue and

[01:36:55] I'm not saying that that isn't even currently changing because

[01:37:02] there for so long has been such lies perpetuated by the mainstream media

[01:37:10] you know maybe there is a genuine push into kids growing up to be racist or growing up

[01:37:18] to be Nazis or anything like that because I mean they're being called these things and it's like

[01:37:24] well I might as well just be them because you know I'm already being labeled and treated as such

[01:37:31] I mean obviously that's not the smart choice but you know it's like you know the Nazis are

[01:37:40] the problem oh you being all 10 of them in Northern Idaho you know yeah and so you know maybe

[01:37:47] it is changing and maybe I am wrong about that but at least up to now it seemed like

[01:37:54] it's like kind of being blown off um so you got to remember though it was the rationale for Joe

[01:38:03] Biden's candidacy was Charlottesville and he talked about Nazis taking said at the recent debate

[01:38:10] materializing out of the forest which is kind of funny but yeah I guess what he got 80 million votes

[01:38:16] or whatever and so maybe his vote disagreeing actually are afraid of yeah this so called Nazi

[01:38:26] problem but I would agree with you I think maybe some of the ideological growth is organic

[01:38:32] but the terrorism side the violence side that I believe that's mostly astro-terrified and

[01:38:46] and then next time we'll recap part one get into some more details there a little bit

[01:38:54] and then dig through part two hopefully you have part three out by that time and we could touch on

[01:38:59] that or you could you know give us a little preview to kind of tie everything up and whatnot

[01:39:07] so any any final thoughts is that you feel that the general public needs to know

[01:39:15] about Pat Con or this I would argue this infiltration of

[01:39:24] just proven ideas at this point. I guess the only thing and we'll probably get into this more

[01:39:30] about in part two is it most of what we discussed the last 40-year history is specifically this far

[01:39:40] called Nazi or white nationalist regardless these are actually right-wing revolutionary

[01:39:47] who did want to overthrow the government and so you do have some kind of a rationale for what

[01:39:52] the FBI did in terms of launching sting operations or infiltration operations obviously

[01:39:59] the results of those were disastrous but I think the more concerning thing is they're applying

[01:40:05] that playbook to the mainstream if you want to see like something like the Whitmer plot

[01:40:09] they were not targeting Nazis those guys actually some of them met the technical definition of

[01:40:15] anti-racist because they supported people like Brianna Taylor so it was the FBI applying

[01:40:21] the Nazi entrapment book to normal dudes in Michigan who just weren't happy about the lockdowns

[01:40:28] and we could see that even more recently with January 6 I think the FBI is doing these things

[01:40:35] a more mainstream conservatives which is definitely something we need to keep our eye on.

[01:40:42] Yeah and for anyone who doesn't know I have actually had branding cassette on and interviewed him

[01:40:49] super solid dude and you know just his case alone was so damning to the FBI in my opinion

[01:40:59] that his story needs to be known because he's not alone I mean there's so many people

[01:41:05] that were in his shoes historically and even now that isn't getting the attention that he's

[01:41:15] getting not that he doesn't deserve it or anything like that because he definitely does

[01:41:21] they practically ruined his life and these people are just getting away with it I mean even

[01:41:28] Gretchen Whitmer was just paraded out in front of everyone is a possible replacement for Joe

[01:41:36] Biden which sent chills down my spine you know that's just it's got awful so but hey can

[01:41:45] thank you so much for doing this I'm excited for the next one everyone watching where where can they

[01:41:53] do Twitter at JD underscore cashless headline us a dot com or the libertarian institute runs

[01:42:02] a lot of my stuff too. Hey awesome and once again everyone watching go to rise to liberty dot com slash

[01:42:10] links that's the master link that pulls up whatever preferred platform you have um so make sure

[01:42:20] go there I have everything down in the episode description make sure and hit up a new do shave

[01:42:28] company their sponsor of the show and without a doubt the best razor you can possibly get

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[01:42:47] so go to an adieu use promo code writes 15 for 15% off and I always follow up with my gas because

[01:42:58] eventually I'm gonna get a large super cut of all of these answers but the the the question is

[01:43:05] why does liberty matter? Oh because it allows us to have these kinds of conversations

[01:43:13] I'm more of a leaky utilitarian guy so hopefully that doesn't turn your whole listener based on

[01:43:19] against me I'm not a big great guy I'm more of like you know what are the consequences so I think

[01:43:26] we live in the most prosperous society in the history of the world and we got liberty to thank for

[01:43:32] that. Yeah I don't think it will turn everyone against you but no you're totally good there um

[01:43:40] and I think that's that's a great answer it's uh the reason we have what we have and hopefully

[01:43:48] we're we're smart enough to keep it because I think that's what Ben Franklin said is you know

[01:43:53] we have a republic if we're willing to keep it so on that note and then until next time

[01:44:00] everyone thank you for tuning in hit that like hit the subscribe if you found this valuable in any way

[01:44:06] perform make sure to share it to everybody our big tech overlords have made made it very

[01:44:13] difficult to grow so it's entirely dependent on you getting these conversations out there so once again

[01:44:20] you found this valuable make sure and share it to anybody possible on any social media just get it

[01:44:26] out there it's the whole reason I started this show is these conversations are incredibly important

[01:44:34] and want to have more of these conversations honest conversations that aren't willing to hide from

[01:44:40] the truth got it get it out there so I appreciate everyone for tuning in thank you again Ken

[01:44:47] hang out so we can wrap up on the back ends and everyone else until next time stay free my friends