Joe Vogler's LIFE and DEATH for Alaska's Freedom!

[00:01:23] Welcome, welcome back to Rise To Liberty Podcast. I have a very special guest today, but real quick before we get into that, just want to let everyone know that we have a very special opportunity for everyone that sees this before November 16th and 17th.

[00:01:42] I have been given permission to be able to give all of my listeners or people who are not subscribed, although you should subscribe, an awesome discount to the Red Pill Expo, which is going to be November 16th and 17th of 2024.

[00:02:00] Normally it's in person, however this year it has been moved virtually. So you can go to risetoliberty.com slash redpill or scan that QR code, use my promo code RISE15 and you will get 15% off any of the paid options.

[00:02:22] Also, if you don't want to pay, there is a free option. You can go to it for free, enjoy the Red Pill Expo from the comfort of your own home, and I can't think of anything better than that.

[00:02:32] So if you've ever thought about going, wanted to go, couldn't afford to go, now is your time. This is your year to go.

[00:02:41] Other than that, make sure, once again, to go to risetoliberty.com slash redpill or scan that QR code.

[00:02:50] And Nadoo Shave Company, one of the only people who have decided to sponsor this show, they have the balls to do it.

[00:02:56] They create an amazing product, one that I use myself.

[00:03:01] So it's something that I highly recommend.

[00:03:04] And couldn't tell you enough great things about this product, this company.

[00:03:12] So go check them out.

[00:03:14] N-A-D-E-A-U-S-H-A-V-E-C-O.com.

[00:03:19] Use promo code RISE15 for 15% off at checkout.

[00:03:24] Now, let's get into it.

[00:03:26] Today's guest is Leighton Radner of Outlawed Thoughts.

[00:03:31] It's been a while since you've been on.

[00:03:33] Yeah, it's been a bit.

[00:03:35] I've been, took a little bit of a hiatus from the YouTube stuff in general.

[00:03:39] I've been focusing on running for office and some other stuff here locally.

[00:03:44] Been trying to get through creating a book and some other things.

[00:03:49] So some stuff that took some time.

[00:03:51] But I will be making a triumphant return here.

[00:03:55] And you're running for office this cycle?

[00:03:58] Yes, I'm running for House of Representatives District 5 over here in Seward.

[00:04:06] District 5 covers Seward, Kodiak.

[00:04:10] Really a bunch of communities over here.

[00:04:13] But that's been going well.

[00:04:16] I just had an interview this morning regarding that.

[00:04:18] And did a candidate form a few days ago that went pretty well.

[00:04:23] It's been interesting.

[00:04:27] First time I've ran for like real office.

[00:04:31] So how is it to, or how difficult is it to actually hold office over there?

[00:04:40] You know, I mean, I haven't done it.

[00:04:43] But I would argue that it's fairly easy.

[00:04:47] The system over here is a lot less party structured than the rest of the U.S.

[00:04:56] Or the lower 48 as we would call it.

[00:04:58] The reality there is that there doesn't appear to be as much party politics here.

[00:05:04] There just isn't much Democrat-Republican kind of infighting as much as there is just a lot of opinions on Alaskan issues.

[00:05:13] I see a lot more politics.

[00:05:16] For instance, you make a statement about the Permanent Fund Dividend.

[00:05:21] That's going to get you a lot more attention than a statement about Trump or Biden here anyway.

[00:05:28] So I think that makes us a little unique compared to other places.

[00:05:32] It's sort of similar in Hawaii, I noticed, where, you know, if you came out and said you were like, you know,

[00:05:39] for foreigners being able to come in and buy up Hawaiian land,

[00:05:43] then I think that would get a lot more attention than you coming out and making some political statement on a party line, you know.

[00:05:49] Right.

[00:05:51] I think we're both similar just because we're detached.

[00:05:53] Yeah.

[00:05:55] Yeah.

[00:05:57] So, I mean, I named the stream Alaska, the land of independence, because I've noticed that there is just a unique brand of not only people that want to live up there, but do live up there.

[00:06:10] Where do you think that actually comes from?

[00:06:15] Well, that's a tough question.

[00:06:18] And it can get into some weird, almost spiritual areas, religious areas.

[00:06:22] I think the, I think honestly, going back historically, which I've got a bunch of it behind me here on my shelves,

[00:06:30] but going through all the books I have and, you know, different accountings of the people who came up here during the gold rush

[00:06:38] and sort of before then, because I think the period before then is actually even more telling and important,

[00:06:43] because it's those first people didn't really have a reason.

[00:06:48] I think it's, I think there's always been a certain allure to Alaska,

[00:06:54] even going back to the late 1800s, mid-1800s.

[00:06:58] The Russians got here, obviously exploited a good deal of the populace,

[00:07:04] started pumping out seal fur and furs and things.

[00:07:09] The main export at that point was furs.

[00:07:12] And since then onward, pretty much, people have been coming here from all over the place.

[00:07:18] And it certainly has a certain, there has to be a certain drive to it.

[00:07:24] I think there is a certain bit of like untamed land.

[00:07:28] And there is a drive, I think, in the American spirit, certainly going back historically,

[00:07:32] of wanting to sort of, you know, conquer, you know, frankly.

[00:07:37] And I think that you can't really do that in the modern world, really, unless you're a government.

[00:07:43] And so one of the few ways you can do that is by getting yourself a nice little piece of land

[00:07:47] and growing a family and homesteading and sort of living out that sort of lifestyle in Alaska,

[00:07:53] I think, gives people that outlet if they know what they're doing.

[00:07:57] If they don't know what they're doing, they will fail miserably.

[00:08:02] And, you know, a lot of people know if you live here in the state,

[00:08:09] you know, kind of a lot of the dregs of the state,

[00:08:13] the populations that have the most problems or the populations that are,

[00:08:17] you know, the homeless population or the, you know,

[00:08:21] addicted populations in the state, things like that.

[00:08:24] A lot of those are people who came to Alaska with a mission and a dream

[00:08:28] and they had their story written for them and they failed to realize that.

[00:08:36] But that is the reality of Alaska.

[00:08:38] There's a lot of failure here as much as there is a lot of success.

[00:08:41] Not everybody who makes it here makes it.

[00:08:44] And so it can be dangerous making the trip.

[00:08:48] I've known a lot of people who come here from the lower 48 who spun out

[00:08:52] and ended up going back home a lot broker than they came,

[00:08:56] showing up and a little more emotionally scarred, you know?

[00:08:59] Yeah.

[00:08:59] But for the most part, I think if you're into that environment,

[00:09:04] you can make it here.

[00:09:06] And I think there's a drive in general to have that opportunity to see

[00:09:11] something other people haven't seen.

[00:09:13] I'm somebody who likes to try to go places other people haven't gone in a

[00:09:16] very long time because I'm into history.

[00:09:18] So I think there's that drive that I certainly have.

[00:09:21] So I have to feel that's there for other people.

[00:09:25] Historically, like behind me here, that's Michael J. Heaney,

[00:09:29] Big Mike Heaney, the Irish prince.

[00:09:35] He's a perfect example of somebody like that.

[00:09:39] Ran away from home as a teenager to work on the railroad,

[00:09:43] got chased down by his brother and taken back to his farmhouse

[00:09:48] and then eventually started working for the Canadian rail line,

[00:09:52] went on to build the White Pass line,

[00:09:54] which was the first rail system to bring all those miners that became the gold

[00:09:59] rush into the state.

[00:10:01] Without his rail line and without the work he did,

[00:10:04] none of that would have existed.

[00:10:05] And he was one dude who, the story goes,

[00:10:10] was in the town at the time talking to two English investors

[00:10:15] who had came to the state to try to decide whether building the railroad was feasible,

[00:10:19] whether they could fund it.

[00:10:20] And they had decided that it wasn't.

[00:10:23] And the line that was attributed to him,

[00:10:25] whether true or not, is great,

[00:10:27] which is what's behind me,

[00:10:28] which is,

[00:10:29] you give me enough dynamite and snooze

[00:10:31] and I'll build a rail to hell.

[00:10:34] Which I think was, you know,

[00:10:37] is appropriate.

[00:10:38] And that whole building of that rail is insane,

[00:10:40] historically,

[00:10:41] what those people had to go through

[00:10:43] with such a small crew.

[00:10:44] Historically, you look at rail projects like that,

[00:10:47] and we're talking about crews of a thousand men plus

[00:10:50] through Arizona, Colorado, those areas.

[00:10:53] They were doing this with 15, 20, 25 people,

[00:10:57] which is crazy.

[00:10:58] Through terrain full of bears and moose and animals,

[00:11:04] you know, other people claim jumping and miners

[00:11:08] and all that kind of crap.

[00:11:09] So it's quite the interesting period there.

[00:11:13] As a spiritual angle to that question,

[00:11:16] I know I'm going a little bit long on this topic,

[00:11:18] but, you know,

[00:11:21] there is a certain bit of what I will call,

[00:11:24] some people call them hums, sky trumpets,

[00:11:27] weird state, you know,

[00:11:28] weird versions of this you'll hear about all over the U.S.

[00:11:32] But here in Alaska,

[00:11:35] there is a certain pull that the state has.

[00:11:38] You know,

[00:11:39] if people hike and people go out in the wilderness a lot here,

[00:11:43] you'll hear people here talk about the mountains sort of humming

[00:11:46] or making noises or by, you know,

[00:11:49] sort of energies you feel when you're in certain areas of the state.

[00:11:52] I definitely think that's true.

[00:11:55] I think there is actually a legitimate,

[00:11:57] like,

[00:11:58] literal pull that this state has over some people.

[00:12:01] I think it,

[00:12:03] you know,

[00:12:04] why that happens,

[00:12:05] I'm not sure.

[00:12:06] I think it might actually have more to do with where we come from than people think.

[00:12:12] I think that there's a reason that not everybody has that feeling,

[00:12:17] and some people do.

[00:12:18] And so I think that is,

[00:12:21] that's where I go with that stuff.

[00:12:22] But I find that sort of a fascinating sort of area that no one talks about,

[00:12:27] is like this weird area of like,

[00:12:30] yeah,

[00:12:30] everybody talks about these weird energy fields,

[00:12:32] and like magnetism is a weird thing up in the state.

[00:12:35] We have these weird magnetic fields that don't really make sense,

[00:12:38] and are often literally constantly studied.

[00:12:42] Not to mention we have things like HAARP and all that kind of crap up here.

[00:12:45] So all that sort of plays a role in the insanity, I suppose.

[00:12:50] Right.

[00:12:51] So one,

[00:12:53] one person I want to ask about just real quick,

[00:12:56] just because this,

[00:12:58] this is like the one person everyone knows or like associates with Alaska is the

[00:13:04] Chris McCandles,

[00:13:06] McCandless,

[00:13:08] I think.

[00:13:08] Oh yeah.

[00:13:09] Um,

[00:13:10] I've heard it pronounced both,

[00:13:12] both ways.

[00:13:13] Um,

[00:13:14] so what's the,

[00:13:15] what's the Alaskan attitude towards not only him,

[00:13:18] but this story?

[00:13:19] Because I mean,

[00:13:20] it's,

[00:13:20] it's a very romanticized version of a very stupid man in my opinion.

[00:13:26] Yeah.

[00:13:27] I come somewhere down in the middle of it.

[00:13:29] I'd say the general state opinion on him is that he was an absolute idiot,

[00:13:34] uh,

[00:13:34] who got himself killed.

[00:13:36] Um,

[00:13:36] but the,

[00:13:37] the other side of that,

[00:13:39] where I sort of have a differing opinion on some of it is,

[00:13:43] I think this is a guy who was deeply depressed and he,

[00:13:46] he had a lot of,

[00:13:47] uh,

[00:13:48] issues.

[00:13:48] He was very socially awkward from what I understand.

[00:13:51] He wasn't,

[00:13:52] um,

[00:13:53] he didn't seem all there.

[00:13:54] We'll say.

[00:13:56] Um,

[00:13:56] and so I think somebody like him probably romanticized sort of what he was doing to a degree.

[00:14:04] I think that's probably why he was writing and doing the things he was doing.

[00:14:07] So there's a psychological angle there that I don't think enough people like look at.

[00:14:11] I think ultimately his story only becomes what it is because of the media and because of sort of reality television and sort of this whole creation around Alaska that is this market that's been created by frankly producers that have never even been here.

[00:14:30] and so,

[00:14:31] uh,

[00:14:31] you know,

[00:14:32] frankly,

[00:14:33] his story makes for a great book and it should have probably ended there and that should have been it.

[00:14:37] And instead it got turned into an entire movement of idiots who try to come up here and replicate what he did to the point where the state goes and moves the bus that he went out to and has to go fly it out,

[00:14:48] which by the way,

[00:14:49] I don't agree with.

[00:14:50] And I think was stupid.

[00:14:51] Um,

[00:14:52] I think in general,

[00:14:54] there were easier solutions there,

[00:14:55] which is to just actually warn people about,

[00:14:57] Hey,

[00:14:57] this area isn't easy to traverse.

[00:14:59] And you're going into an area where you can legitimately die if you're an idiot,

[00:15:03] you know,

[00:15:04] like,

[00:15:04] uh,

[00:15:05] I think most likely what killed him and a lot of people I've talked to in the state is most likely what he was eating.

[00:15:12] Um,

[00:15:12] you know,

[00:15:13] the problem with his situation was he went out there and from what I understand was eating rabbits and things.

[00:15:20] And there's,

[00:15:21] there's issues with that.

[00:15:22] You can't really sustain off of,

[00:15:24] off of rabbits only like it a little bit to kill you.

[00:15:27] I see that you starve because they don't have a protein content.

[00:15:30] They don't have like enough actual fatty material to them.

[00:15:35] Um,

[00:15:35] so you think you're eating,

[00:15:36] but you're not,

[00:15:37] you won't really get full.

[00:15:38] And so that can,

[00:15:39] that can cause a lot of issues.

[00:15:41] And in general,

[00:15:42] the guy was just emaciated.

[00:15:43] He shouldn't have been out there.

[00:15:45] Um,

[00:15:46] you know,

[00:15:47] there's something to be said about like,

[00:15:49] what is healthy?

[00:15:51] Right.

[00:15:52] Right.

[00:15:52] When you look at a photo of that guy,

[00:15:54] you certainly don't go,

[00:15:55] Oh yeah,

[00:15:56] you're in tip top health.

[00:15:57] Um,

[00:15:58] I know a lot of hikers who are really light,

[00:16:01] really being pole skinny who hike.

[00:16:04] And,

[00:16:04] um,

[00:16:05] I don't deem that as being healthy.

[00:16:08] Uh,

[00:16:09] because I've known a lot of those guys who go out and really badly hurt themselves.

[00:16:13] So you can't,

[00:16:14] you gotta have enough,

[00:16:15] whether you're talking about just a little bit of weight on you or a little bit of muscle tone,

[00:16:19] you have to have something there to protect your muscles and bones and stuff.

[00:16:24] And if you're trying to go hike up mountains and hike out trails and things,

[00:16:28] that's the other thing you gotta like,

[00:16:30] watch out for somebody like him.

[00:16:31] I,

[00:16:32] I,

[00:16:33] I would have never recommended somebody like that guy be out anywhere near where he was.

[00:16:37] Um,

[00:16:38] and I think most locals would say the same thing as he was just stupid,

[00:16:42] you know,

[00:16:43] went out there when he shouldn't have,

[00:16:44] um,

[00:16:45] at the same time,

[00:16:47] I think he probably did that on purpose.

[00:16:49] I think the guy knew he wasn't coming back.

[00:16:51] I,

[00:16:51] I don't think that's,

[00:16:53] and I think most people I talk to here,

[00:16:56] that's the sentiment.

[00:16:57] So it's like,

[00:16:58] well,

[00:16:58] then this story shouldn't have become what it is.

[00:17:00] This isn't a guy who went out and went hiking and accidentally died because he screwed up and was stupid.

[00:17:05] It's a guy who went out there with the intentions to go die and did exactly what he,

[00:17:10] yeah.

[00:17:11] And it did exactly what he planned on doing.

[00:17:13] Um,

[00:17:14] you know,

[00:17:14] you almost think about it as,

[00:17:16] you know,

[00:17:16] it's a,

[00:17:17] not the greatest comparison,

[00:17:18] but you know,

[00:17:19] people who've had pets,

[00:17:20] uh,

[00:17:21] you know,

[00:17:21] sometimes your pets just sort of walk off and don't come back and they kind of,

[00:17:25] you know,

[00:17:25] the cats are sort of famous for that though.

[00:17:28] Yeah.

[00:17:28] You know,

[00:17:28] it's not the worst way to do that if you're going to do that and you've got family and people like that,

[00:17:33] I suppose.

[00:17:37] So there,

[00:17:37] I mean that there is like this,

[00:17:39] uh,

[00:17:41] almost innate desire in humans,

[00:17:43] I think to search for this independence,

[00:17:46] um,

[00:17:48] whether people actually wanted it or not,

[00:17:50] I think is a,

[00:17:51] in an entirely different discussion.

[00:17:54] However,

[00:17:54] it seems like at some point,

[00:17:57] especially in a young man's life,

[00:17:59] there's definitely like this desire for,

[00:18:04] for being out in the wild.

[00:18:06] Maybe,

[00:18:07] maybe not even just like the wilderness itself,

[00:18:09] but being just out in the world,

[00:18:14] searching for yourself and testing your bounds.

[00:18:19] And I think that that's at least part of the reason why Alaska is such,

[00:18:24] such a draw because I mean,

[00:18:26] it's you and mother nature.

[00:18:30] That's,

[00:18:30] that's it.

[00:18:31] I mean,

[00:18:32] there's,

[00:18:32] there's lots of other desolate areas,

[00:18:35] uh,

[00:18:36] within the lower 48,

[00:18:37] um,

[00:18:38] especially in,

[00:18:39] in my state of Utah.

[00:18:41] Um,

[00:18:43] but,

[00:18:43] but you're right.

[00:18:44] Alaska is just,

[00:18:46] it's different.

[00:18:47] Um,

[00:18:48] not to take away from any other location,

[00:18:51] but it's,

[00:18:52] it's just different than anything else.

[00:18:53] And I don't think it can be compared to anything else.

[00:18:57] So one person I did want to talk about,

[00:19:00] um,

[00:19:01] which is part of the reason I brought you on is Joe Vogler.

[00:19:06] This,

[00:19:06] this is somebody who you brought to my attention.

[00:19:09] Um,

[00:19:10] somebody that I think,

[00:19:11] or that somebody that I agree with you,

[00:19:14] more people should definitely know about,

[00:19:16] uh,

[00:19:17] should know more about who he is,

[00:19:19] what happened.

[00:19:20] And,

[00:19:21] uh,

[00:19:21] you,

[00:19:21] you're about the perfect person to talk to.

[00:19:25] Yeah.

[00:19:26] So his story,

[00:19:27] um,

[00:19:28] you know,

[00:19:28] for me,

[00:19:29] I,

[00:19:29] I came sort of,

[00:19:31] uh,

[00:19:32] narratively.

[00:19:33] I,

[00:19:33] I back in 2008 was when I really sort of got,

[00:19:38] uh,

[00:19:38] woke up to the political world at all.

[00:19:41] I was very young.

[00:19:42] I was like 19 years old.

[00:19:43] And,

[00:19:44] uh,

[00:19:44] that was during the,

[00:19:45] um,

[00:19:47] Obama presidency run.

[00:19:49] Everybody started talking about politics.

[00:19:51] So I started sort of paying attention to things that were happening on the news and stuff.

[00:19:56] Back then we had like seven channels because we paid for like the,

[00:20:01] we didn't have,

[00:20:02] we didn't pay for TV.

[00:20:03] So we had that little antenna you had to plug in.

[00:20:06] And,

[00:20:06] um,

[00:20:07] and so we would watch,

[00:20:09] uh,

[00:20:09] the news every day,

[00:20:10] pretty much like the local news.

[00:20:12] And so that was,

[00:20:13] you know,

[00:20:13] debates would come on and all that.

[00:20:15] And so I watched Ron Paul in 2008 and that was how I got sort of interested in politics

[00:20:21] because at that point,

[00:20:22] the only thing I had really cared about from a schooling perspective or education perspective

[00:20:27] was a bit of history.

[00:20:28] And so,

[00:20:29] um,

[00:20:30] from 10 years on,

[00:20:31] that was sort of the thing I cared most about was like history and just that kind of

[00:20:35] stuff in general.

[00:20:37] And in 2008,

[00:20:39] one of the big things that was being talked about was,

[00:20:42] um,

[00:20:44] the intro of,

[00:20:45] uh,

[00:20:46] McCain and McCain,

[00:20:49] obviously becoming this figure that the media was sort of covering.

[00:20:54] And then McCain picks Palin as his VP.

[00:20:57] And,

[00:20:58] um,

[00:20:59] with that being done,

[00:21:00] this brought Alaska sort of into the fray of the national political spotlight in the worst

[00:21:05] way possible.

[00:21:06] Um,

[00:21:07] because Hillary Clinton is,

[00:21:08] because,

[00:21:09] rather,

[00:21:10] um,

[00:21:11] because Sarah Palin is a horrible,

[00:21:13] uh,

[00:21:14] representative in my opinion for the state of Alaska.

[00:21:17] She doesn't have,

[00:21:18] uh,

[00:21:19] in my opinion,

[00:21:20] the Alaskan charm,

[00:21:21] we'll say.

[00:21:22] And as far as from a cultural standpoint,

[00:21:25] I'm from Big Lake,

[00:21:26] which is right next to Wasilla,

[00:21:28] which is where her and her family are from.

[00:21:30] I don't need to tell the people that are from Alaska,

[00:21:33] the insanity that is their family issues.

[00:21:36] But,

[00:21:37] um,

[00:21:38] just from a personal angle,

[00:21:40] is that the,

[00:21:41] really the people you want representing the state?

[00:21:44] I don't think so.

[00:21:45] I don't want nothing to do with them.

[00:21:47] Some of them anyway,

[00:21:48] but the Palin's,

[00:21:50] oh,

[00:21:50] Jesus fuck.

[00:21:51] I forgot that show even existed.

[00:21:53] Me too.

[00:21:54] My God.

[00:21:55] It's funny.

[00:21:56] I,

[00:21:56] you know,

[00:21:56] that,

[00:21:57] that whole dysfunctional,

[00:21:58] whole dysfunctional pack of them.

[00:22:00] Uh,

[00:22:01] they're all,

[00:22:01] none of them are,

[00:22:04] none of them.

[00:22:04] So,

[00:22:05] Big Lake is really its own place.

[00:22:07] Yeah,

[00:22:07] it is definitely.

[00:22:08] Uh,

[00:22:09] the Simpsons movie summed it up pretty good.

[00:22:11] When the family flees the continental U.S.

[00:22:13] and the man in the booth gives them a free thousand dollars.

[00:22:16] That is,

[00:22:17] um,

[00:22:17] one of my favorite scenes.

[00:22:19] They have the poster that he puts on the front of the window,

[00:22:22] and then they go to tear the poster off,

[00:22:24] and it doesn't go anywhere.

[00:22:27] Yeah,

[00:22:28] that's,

[00:22:28] yeah,

[00:22:29] but,

[00:22:29] uh,

[00:22:30] you know,

[00:22:30] so Palin became sort of,

[00:22:33] in my opinion,

[00:22:34] and I talk about this in the book that I'm writing certainly more,

[00:22:37] the,

[00:22:38] you know,

[00:22:38] in my opinion,

[00:22:39] Palin became an easy target over McCain.

[00:22:42] It gave the media the ability to kind of just ignore McCain's existence,

[00:22:45] and I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that McCain had a lot of political clout,

[00:22:50] but Palin didn't,

[00:22:51] and the right and left that both did not like Obama,

[00:22:56] but,

[00:22:57] and wanted to support McCain,

[00:22:59] now really couldn't publicly because,

[00:23:01] uh,

[00:23:02] was going to get tied to support for Palin,

[00:23:04] and so that became sort of the media narrative,

[00:23:06] and with that came a lot of people trashing,

[00:23:10] um,

[00:23:11] Palin,

[00:23:11] and one of those people in particular was Rachel Maddow,

[00:23:15] and,

[00:23:15] um,

[00:23:16] uh,

[00:23:17] at the time,

[00:23:18] her favorite little bitch boy,

[00:23:19] Max Blumenthal,

[00:23:21] and,

[00:23:21] uh,

[00:23:21] Max Blumenthal has integrated his way into the Liberty Movement,

[00:23:25] which I absolutely despise,

[00:23:26] and I will call that little dweeb out everywhere that I can,

[00:23:30] he wrote and went on Rachel Maddow's show a number of times,

[00:23:34] and wrote a bunch of hit pieces for Salon,

[00:23:36] and a bunch of other various places,

[00:23:39] in regards to the,

[00:23:40] uh,

[00:23:42] Independence Party here in Alaska,

[00:23:43] the Alaskan Independence Party.

[00:23:44] Now,

[00:23:45] when I was a kid,

[00:23:46] this was my first actual introduction to this stuff,

[00:23:48] because,

[00:23:49] uh,

[00:23:50] like I said,

[00:23:50] I was paying attention to the news,

[00:23:52] and paying attention to this stuff as a little kid,

[00:23:54] and one of the things that came across my way was,

[00:23:56] this interview that was put up on YouTube,

[00:24:00] of,

[00:24:01] um,

[00:24:01] Rachel Maddow talking with,

[00:24:04] uh,

[00:24:04] Max Blumenthal,

[00:24:05] about Sarah Palin's ties to a fringe political group in Alaska,

[00:24:10] and he's on there shucking and jiving,

[00:24:13] talking about how horrible these people are,

[00:24:15] because they're,

[00:24:16] uh,

[00:24:17] conspiracy theorists who believe in the New World Order,

[00:24:20] and all this,

[00:24:21] uh,

[00:24:21] stuff,

[00:24:22] and,

[00:24:22] and he's referencing them as neo-confederates,

[00:24:25] and he kept calling Joe Vogler,

[00:24:27] and the ideas that they were putting forward,

[00:24:29] neo-confederate ideas.

[00:24:32] The more I dug into,

[00:24:33] oh,

[00:24:34] hey,

[00:24:34] there's a scene,

[00:24:35] yeah,

[00:24:35] exactly.

[00:24:36] The more I dug into it,

[00:24:39] I love this.

[00:24:44] It goes to reach for it.

[00:24:47] Yeah.

[00:24:49] But the,

[00:24:50] uh,

[00:24:50] the more I looked into Vogler,

[00:24:53] which is the,

[00:24:54] the person they mentioned,

[00:24:55] they said,

[00:24:55] well,

[00:24:55] Palin is involved with this party,

[00:24:57] her husband is involved with this party,

[00:24:59] and look who the founder of the party was,

[00:25:02] and they start putting up all these quotes of Joe Vogler,

[00:25:05] and that was sort of the first intro I had to this guy,

[00:25:08] and so I started digging into him,

[00:25:09] as I got a little bit older,

[00:25:10] and really started caring about Alaskan history and politics,

[00:25:15] um,

[00:25:15] and so about four or five years ago,

[00:25:16] I started really kind of digging into who this guy was,

[00:25:20] you know,

[00:25:20] and,

[00:25:21] and where he came from,

[00:25:22] what his whole strategy was,

[00:25:23] because,

[00:25:24] um,

[00:25:25] you know,

[00:25:25] you have this Wikipedia posts,

[00:25:27] and you've got all the,

[00:25:28] the,

[00:25:28] the info out there,

[00:25:30] but how much of it is actually,

[00:25:31] like,

[00:25:32] fleshed out,

[00:25:33] where did it come from,

[00:25:34] that's a different question.

[00:25:36] Um,

[00:25:36] I started trying to find sources for stuff,

[00:25:38] that became very difficult,

[00:25:39] because,

[00:25:41] unfortunately,

[00:25:42] um,

[00:25:42] a lot of people have passed away,

[00:25:44] the people who are around now,

[00:25:46] a lot of them don't know as much as you'd like,

[00:25:49] and don't,

[00:25:49] didn't have as much,

[00:25:50] you know,

[00:25:51] weren't as close to the situation as I'd like them to be,

[00:25:54] um,

[00:25:55] but over the last,

[00:25:56] uh,

[00:25:57] four or five years now,

[00:25:58] I've talked on the phone with probably 15 or so people who knew Joe personally at the time of his disappearance,

[00:26:05] which,

[00:26:05] um,

[00:26:06] is sort of the,

[00:26:07] the end of the road there,

[00:26:09] and then I,

[00:26:10] uh,

[00:26:10] I've spoken to three total so far,

[00:26:15] um,

[00:26:16] of prison employees,

[00:26:17] or people in law enforcement,

[00:26:19] who were,

[00:26:20] um,

[00:26:21] around during that time,

[00:26:22] were directly involved in the case,

[00:26:24] or,

[00:26:25] in the case of two of those people,

[00:26:26] were prison guards,

[00:26:28] who had direct conversations with,

[00:26:31] uh,

[00:26:31] with Cartoon Freddy,

[00:26:33] who is the person who would ultimately be,

[00:26:36] um,

[00:26:36] fingered for the killing of Joe Vogler,

[00:26:39] um,

[00:26:41] but Joe created,

[00:26:42] uh,

[00:26:43] he came over to Alaska in the 40s,

[00:26:45] um,

[00:26:46] created the Alaskan Independence Party in the 70s,

[00:26:50] um,

[00:26:50] was really talking about cultural issues in the state,

[00:26:55] the argument that statehood,

[00:26:57] um,

[00:26:57] was done in a criminal fashion,

[00:27:00] really,

[00:27:01] or an illegal fashion,

[00:27:03] that,

[00:27:03] um,

[00:27:04] federal employees were pumped into the state to inflate the votes,

[00:27:08] um,

[00:27:10] and that the totals were basically askew to begin with,

[00:27:13] um,

[00:27:14] he argued for a petition to the UN,

[00:27:18] um,

[00:27:18] for,

[00:27:20] basically redress,

[00:27:21] but the idea was to get a vote on the ballot here in the state to decide what we should be,

[00:27:28] um,

[00:27:29] whether that be an independent nation,

[00:27:31] whether that be,

[00:27:33] um,

[00:27:33] part of the union,

[00:27:34] whether that be,

[00:27:35] um,

[00:27:36] you know,

[00:27:36] a colony or whatever the case may be,

[00:27:38] um,

[00:27:39] from a,

[00:27:39] from a name point of view,

[00:27:41] or,

[00:27:42] but,

[00:27:43] uh,

[00:27:44] he felt this way because of a legal,

[00:27:46] um,

[00:27:48] argument,

[00:27:49] and,

[00:27:49] and I,

[00:27:49] what I always point out to people is that,

[00:27:51] you know,

[00:27:52] Joe was a lawyer.

[00:27:53] He was,

[00:27:53] he passed the bar at a very young age.

[00:27:55] He,

[00:27:55] he came from,

[00:27:56] you know,

[00:27:57] relatively poor family in Kansas,

[00:27:59] grew up working on a farm,

[00:28:01] um,

[00:28:01] you know,

[00:28:02] talks about,

[00:28:02] and many of the recordings he has about depressions and about,

[00:28:06] uh,

[00:28:06] the,

[00:28:06] you know,

[00:28:07] financial troubles and growing up with a grandfather who used to bury his money and,

[00:28:11] uh,

[00:28:12] and father who used to go through those things.

[00:28:14] So I think that,

[00:28:15] um,

[00:28:16] you know,

[00:28:16] he comes from that sort of a cut,

[00:28:18] cut from a different cloth.

[00:28:20] Um,

[00:28:21] you know,

[00:28:21] this is a guy quick,

[00:28:22] real,

[00:28:23] real quick before we get too much,

[00:28:24] uh,

[00:28:25] deeper.

[00:28:26] What,

[00:28:26] what exactly is the Alaskan independence party?

[00:28:30] If you can answer that real quick,

[00:28:31] like what,

[00:28:32] what makes it so much different than say just any other political party or like the libertarian party?

[00:28:38] Well,

[00:28:39] the biggest structural difference is that they didn't,

[00:28:43] um,

[00:28:44] originally they weren't really formed with any other political goals in the independence argument.

[00:28:50] So there wasn't,

[00:28:51] they weren't like,

[00:28:52] you know,

[00:28:53] the libertarians are like,

[00:28:54] we want smaller government.

[00:28:55] We want this,

[00:28:56] we want that.

[00:28:56] We have this big like platform.

[00:28:58] They didn't have that.

[00:28:59] Um,

[00:29:00] it started as a petition,

[00:29:01] which he had got signed by a good chunk of people actually at the time in the state.

[00:29:07] I think the population was somewhere around 160,000 and I think he had 10,000 signatures.

[00:29:14] Which if you think about it is a decent chunk of the population at that point.

[00:29:18] So,

[00:29:18] um,

[00:29:19] you know,

[00:29:19] the party came to be because that petition was ignored.

[00:29:25] And Joe felt as though because they had ignored the petition,

[00:29:29] he didn't really have much other options in the form of party.

[00:29:32] At the time,

[00:29:32] he was friends with a number of other miners in the area who had a decent amount of financial,

[00:29:37] you know,

[00:29:38] uh,

[00:29:39] sway.

[00:29:39] And so they made the decision to form the party basically to support that concept,

[00:29:45] um,

[00:29:46] originally.

[00:29:47] Uh,

[00:29:47] and it's,

[00:29:48] you know,

[00:29:48] some stuff has been added along the way and now they have sort of an official platform.

[00:29:52] I,

[00:29:52] I'd say now today,

[00:29:53] the independence party is much more like a libertarian party or any other party.

[00:29:58] But certainly at the time,

[00:30:00] um,

[00:30:01] when he formed it and was still alive,

[00:30:03] it was not that it was not viewed as that.

[00:30:05] It was more of a single issue party,

[00:30:07] um,

[00:30:08] with some sprinkling of other issues,

[00:30:11] you know?

[00:30:12] Right.

[00:30:14] So,

[00:30:15] so,

[00:30:15] so,

[00:30:15] I mean,

[00:30:16] is it fair to categorize it as literally just a movement to focus on Alaska as from,

[00:30:27] so,

[00:30:28] so I guess like,

[00:30:28] uh,

[00:30:31] not like a,

[00:30:32] not like a nationalist,

[00:30:33] but,

[00:30:34] uh,

[00:30:34] a status.

[00:30:36] No,

[00:30:37] I would,

[00:30:37] I would absolutely call it nationalist.

[00:30:39] Um,

[00:30:40] the,

[00:30:40] the,

[00:30:41] the,

[00:30:41] the viewpoint of,

[00:30:42] I think,

[00:30:43] um,

[00:30:44] Joe,

[00:30:44] and other people I've heard it referred to as Alaska nationalism.

[00:30:49] Um,

[00:30:50] so,

[00:30:50] and I think that has,

[00:30:52] and I,

[00:30:53] I think that,

[00:30:54] that is ultimately what it is.

[00:30:56] That's the category I would put it in from what I've listened.

[00:30:59] And I mean,

[00:30:59] I've listened to every recording there is available currently that I know of,

[00:31:04] and some that I didn't know of from Joe,

[00:31:07] because I did a lot of searching,

[00:31:08] obviously,

[00:31:09] and I've read most of the things that I could find that he's written.

[00:31:12] I've read the UN documents,

[00:31:13] all that kind of stuff.

[00:31:14] Um,

[00:31:15] but,

[00:31:16] you know,

[00:31:16] Joe was not some rampant right winger,

[00:31:19] right?

[00:31:20] You know,

[00:31:20] he had lots of opinions that the right,

[00:31:22] even at the time would have hated.

[00:31:24] Um,

[00:31:24] but,

[00:31:25] uh,

[00:31:26] you know,

[00:31:26] he wasn't also somebody who was completely against the idea of government.

[00:31:30] This wasn't an anarchist.

[00:31:32] Nowhere do I claim that,

[00:31:33] that he was,

[00:31:34] I think he was,

[00:31:35] you know,

[00:31:36] his point of view was that he wanted a more constitutional government.

[00:31:40] Um,

[00:31:41] but his view was that it was impossible to get that with the federal government in the way.

[00:31:46] Uh,

[00:31:47] and so,

[00:31:47] you know,

[00:31:48] his,

[00:31:48] I don't think he was in favor of statehood.

[00:31:51] That's for sure.

[00:31:51] He was obviously in favor of independence.

[00:31:53] He said that,

[00:31:54] um,

[00:31:55] you know,

[00:31:55] and I think that,

[00:31:57] uh,

[00:31:58] I think that his view was that statehood really,

[00:32:01] uh,

[00:32:02] brought the end to what was real Alaskan culture.

[00:32:06] And I think that his view was that it already happened everywhere else.

[00:32:09] Uh,

[00:32:09] and so,

[00:32:11] um,

[00:32:11] you know,

[00:32:12] he saw it as fresh and so it could still maybe be stopped.

[00:32:16] Um,

[00:32:16] you know,

[00:32:17] I personally think he was right and I think it probably still can be,

[00:32:21] but,

[00:32:21] you know,

[00:32:22] I think we're running out of time in that regard.

[00:32:25] Yeah.

[00:32:26] So how,

[00:32:27] how active is the Alaskan independence party?

[00:32:31] Like comparatively speaking?

[00:32:33] Um,

[00:32:34] not super.

[00:32:36] Uh,

[00:32:36] they still get a good deal of votes in certain areas and they,

[00:32:39] they,

[00:32:39] they can get some people elected,

[00:32:41] but the reality of it is in the state today.

[00:32:45] Um,

[00:32:46] they fell behind the times.

[00:32:48] Um,

[00:32:48] they don't have a real social media presence.

[00:32:51] Their website's very old.

[00:32:52] Um,

[00:32:53] I'm friends with Arthur Surkov.

[00:32:55] I've talked to him multiple times.

[00:32:57] He's the VP for their party.

[00:32:59] Um,

[00:32:59] I've spoken to their new chair and their old chair,

[00:33:03] multiple times.

[00:33:05] both of which knew Vogler.

[00:33:07] Um,

[00:33:09] but yeah,

[00:33:10] there's a lot to be desired there.

[00:33:12] Um,

[00:33:13] I,

[00:33:14] I,

[00:33:14] I speak very positively of the people I've had dealings with,

[00:33:17] with the party.

[00:33:18] I just don't,

[00:33:18] I don't think they've quite caught up with things yet.

[00:33:23] Um,

[00:33:23] and I'm hoping they do that soon because I think it would bring a lot more people into their side of things.

[00:33:29] Um,

[00:33:29] you know,

[00:33:30] part of the reason why I've spoken to them is because I'm working on the book and trying to get a second version of the documentary and stuff done.

[00:33:36] Um,

[00:33:37] you know,

[00:33:37] I'm hoping some of that maybe helps them out in,

[00:33:40] you know,

[00:33:40] just in passing because it gives them a way to point people towards,

[00:33:44] Hey,

[00:33:44] here's the history here.

[00:33:46] Um,

[00:33:46] and the sort of story.

[00:33:48] Um,

[00:33:49] Sean asked,

[00:33:50] uh,

[00:33:50] does major U S military presence and interest in Alaska affect movements for Alaska independence?

[00:33:59] Certainly.

[00:34:00] Yeah.

[00:34:00] I think the,

[00:34:01] the,

[00:34:02] the major problem you have there is from the very beginning before statehood,

[00:34:07] the federal government was affecting the ability for Alaskans to own land or homestead or traverse.

[00:34:14] And really though,

[00:34:17] even beyond the military,

[00:34:19] the silent killer for the state has been the national park system,

[00:34:24] which I know it's certainly true in the lower 48,

[00:34:27] but the national park system is an absolute scourge,

[00:34:30] uh,

[00:34:31] to Alaska.

[00:34:32] And I think Alaskans ought to have far more resentment for the federal government for it.

[00:34:38] They've locked up what is realistically about 50% of the large unused land here and have decided that we can't touch it,

[00:34:46] uh,

[00:34:46] for any reason.

[00:34:47] And that's absolute insanity.

[00:34:50] It shouldn't be accepted by anybody here.

[00:34:53] Yeah.

[00:34:54] Uh,

[00:34:54] so I mean,

[00:34:55] military presence is a whole nother story because the military base is here.

[00:34:58] I mean,

[00:34:59] half of them,

[00:35:00] you don't even know if they exist or not because the state's so large.

[00:35:03] I mean,

[00:35:03] who knows what these people have hiding out in the fucking boonies here?

[00:35:08] Yeah.

[00:35:09] So basically no more than any,

[00:35:14] any other state,

[00:35:15] because like here in the state of Utah,

[00:35:16] one of,

[00:35:17] one of the biggest issues that we have is BLM.

[00:35:21] Um,

[00:35:22] they control massive quantities of,

[00:35:25] of our land.

[00:35:26] And actually right now,

[00:35:28] mind you,

[00:35:30] I,

[00:35:30] I can't stand our state government here in,

[00:35:33] here in Utah.

[00:35:34] Our governor is just,

[00:35:35] he is the stereotypical politician.

[00:35:39] He is whatever he needs to be in the moment to please the most people,

[00:35:45] to stay in office,

[00:35:46] to advance his career.

[00:35:47] Like that's,

[00:35:48] that's all he is.

[00:35:49] And so the bad part about that is,

[00:35:52] is the obvious,

[00:35:54] but then the good part of that is,

[00:35:55] is that there have been a couple of things that he's done that are actually

[00:35:59] pretty cool,

[00:36:00] like constitutional carry.

[00:36:02] But one thing that I'm not sure how Floridians,

[00:36:06] Floridians shudder at the mere idea of the thing.

[00:36:09] Yeah.

[00:36:11] Um,

[00:36:11] one thing he's doing right now is,

[00:36:14] uh,

[00:36:14] we have a lawsuit seeking to take state control over all of the federal

[00:36:20] land.

[00:36:20] This is precisely why I'm running to be a representative.

[00:36:24] This is,

[00:36:24] this is the exact kind of issues that I've been talking about the most in

[00:36:27] every interview I've been in is the fact that in the state of Alaska,

[00:36:31] and I,

[00:36:32] I try to get people hear this number and I don't think they really put it in

[00:36:36] real context.

[00:36:38] Okay.

[00:36:39] Less than 1% of the state of Alaska is privately owned.

[00:36:44] Okay.

[00:36:46] Somewhere in the ballpark of 60% of it is federally owned and somewhere in the

[00:36:51] ballpark of 39 to 40% of it is state owned.

[00:36:54] So right now,

[00:36:57] as it stands,

[00:36:58] the federal government not only owns more of the state than the actual state,

[00:37:04] but the federal government owns what is literally 60 times,

[00:37:11] if not closer to 75 times more than the private market share in the state.

[00:37:19] So if you own a home in the state of Alaska with an acre of land,

[00:37:23] you are part of an elite fucking club.

[00:37:28] It has become an actual like pink chip,

[00:37:32] you know,

[00:37:33] poker chip.

[00:37:33] We're talking about,

[00:37:34] you know,

[00:37:35] a high dollar item.

[00:37:37] This is the reason why land here has become so scarce.

[00:37:39] It's the reason why the value of everything has been inflated to an insane amount.

[00:37:43] There's no reason why a new home buyer should be buying an acre of land here in the state for 75 to $155,000.

[00:37:53] Um,

[00:37:54] yeah,

[00:37:54] there you go.

[00:37:56] Right.

[00:37:57] That's,

[00:37:58] that's what we get.

[00:37:59] It's,

[00:38:00] it's the West plus Alaska.

[00:38:02] I mean,

[00:38:04] and the very fact that the federal government can own land or own anything is insane to me.

[00:38:12] Uh,

[00:38:13] it's,

[00:38:13] it's an entity,

[00:38:14] not a,

[00:38:14] not like,

[00:38:16] well,

[00:38:17] I guess it is a corporation in how it runs.

[00:38:20] However,

[00:38:20] the very fact that it could,

[00:38:23] possess property,

[00:38:24] um,

[00:38:25] as if it is a person because of things like,

[00:38:27] uh,

[00:38:28] uh,

[00:38:28] corporate personhood is insane to me.

[00:38:31] Yeah.

[00:38:32] I take it to a more cultural argument here in the state.

[00:38:36] And a lot of people here will call me crazy for it.

[00:38:39] And I would tell them to listen to people like Joe or any of the people historically in the seventies and eighties who were talking about Alaskan politics.

[00:38:47] I think culturally,

[00:38:49] culturally,

[00:38:50] the people who know Alaska best are the people who've been here and who settled it or who are native to here.

[00:39:02] Um,

[00:39:02] uh,

[00:39:03] you know,

[00:39:03] I think even the state has completely screwed them over.

[00:39:06] So in that regard,

[00:39:07] my,

[00:39:08] my opinion on it is that,

[00:39:09] um,

[00:39:10] you know,

[00:39:11] the,

[00:39:11] the natives here,

[00:39:12] Alaska natives,

[00:39:13] the settlers that are,

[00:39:15] you know,

[00:39:16] still here that have family who are still here going back to the late 1800s,

[00:39:21] um,

[00:39:21] you know,

[00:39:22] and the people who moved here to work in the fishing industry,

[00:39:25] work in the mining industry,

[00:39:26] work in the oil and gas industry.

[00:39:28] These people know the state far better than anybody who's sitting 2000 miles away.

[00:39:33] And so,

[00:39:34] you know,

[00:39:35] my,

[00:39:35] my ultimate like goal would be,

[00:39:38] um,

[00:39:39] you know,

[00:39:39] and I think an Alaska nationalist goal from an independence point of view is limit who can come into this state,

[00:39:46] and affect change.

[00:39:48] and the only way you're going to do that.

[00:39:50] And I know some people will say,

[00:39:51] well,

[00:39:51] that's isolationist.

[00:39:52] Yeah,

[00:39:53] it is to a certain degree.

[00:39:54] I think you have to be when we're in such a fragile position.

[00:39:57] And frankly,

[00:39:58] we've been,

[00:39:59] uh,

[00:40:00] bent over without consent for the last hundred years.

[00:40:04] Um,

[00:40:04] you know,

[00:40:05] uh,

[00:40:06] you know,

[00:40:06] this doesn't just come down to us issues.

[00:40:09] This also is a Russian issue.

[00:40:10] You know,

[00:40:10] Russians cause a lot of problems here too.

[00:40:13] Then the Americans came in and caused a lot of problems.

[00:40:15] We haven't got a break in an awful long time.

[00:40:18] Uh,

[00:40:19] and you know,

[00:40:20] the,

[00:40:21] the,

[00:40:22] you know,

[00:40:22] I have a lot of admiration for the Russians too.

[00:40:24] The,

[00:40:25] the,

[00:40:25] you know,

[00:40:26] frankly,

[00:40:26] the Russian Orthodox community here in Alaska is great.

[00:40:30] And I think,

[00:40:31] many of them is,

[00:40:32] I've spoken to,

[00:40:33] to a number of them who are amazing people.

[00:40:36] Um,

[00:40:36] and you know,

[00:40:37] something I always point out is historically,

[00:40:40] cause I am in the history here.

[00:40:41] Um,

[00:40:42] you know,

[00:40:43] people like,

[00:40:44] um,

[00:40:45] St.

[00:40:45] Erman and,

[00:40:46] and these folks that,

[00:40:47] that sort of come from history books,

[00:40:49] uh,

[00:40:49] from a Russian Orthodox perspective here,

[00:40:51] we do have a saint,

[00:40:52] uh,

[00:40:53] in Alaska.

[00:40:53] So that makes us sort of unique.

[00:40:55] Um,

[00:40:56] although they pass those out pretty,

[00:40:59] uh,

[00:41:00] their system a little more often than the Catholics,

[00:41:03] I noticed.

[00:41:04] Um,

[00:41:04] the,

[00:41:04] the reality there is that,

[00:41:06] uh,

[00:41:07] you know,

[00:41:07] his story is very unique because he's somebody who's known as,

[00:41:11] being someone who defended and spoke for a lot of the native community here in the state

[00:41:15] and defended their ability to,

[00:41:17] to,

[00:41:18] to be free.

[00:41:19] And so,

[00:41:20] um,

[00:41:21] you know,

[00:41:21] that's something I think,

[00:41:23] uh,

[00:41:24] we need,

[00:41:25] right?

[00:41:25] We need people who are advocating for people to be free again.

[00:41:28] And there's not a lot of that going on in the state,

[00:41:30] certainly not a lot of it going on in the government.

[00:41:33] And so you have what has now become basically stagnant.

[00:41:37] Like,

[00:41:37] there is no real big liberty movement in the state.

[00:41:40] They're all sort of fragmented and tiny,

[00:41:43] which is what I think has happened on a national scale too.

[00:41:46] Um,

[00:41:47] but yeah,

[00:41:47] it's just,

[00:41:49] we're getting to a rough spot.

[00:41:51] So even,

[00:41:52] even though like an actual movement,

[00:41:54] uh,

[00:41:56] that doesn't seem very active or,

[00:41:59] um,

[00:41:59] very hopeful,

[00:42:00] at least right now,

[00:42:02] what,

[00:42:02] what is at least the attitude of everyone up there?

[00:42:05] Because I imagine it's probably pretty similar to how it is here.

[00:42:09] Um,

[00:42:10] where there are tons of people who can't stand what's going on,

[00:42:15] who definitely wants the state to control the federal land.

[00:42:19] Um,

[00:42:20] you know,

[00:42:21] have the state control our mineral rights,

[00:42:23] our water rights,

[00:42:24] all of these different things.

[00:42:26] However,

[00:42:27] there's just not a real big active movement,

[00:42:29] um,

[00:42:30] to actually making that happen or changing it.

[00:42:34] Yeah,

[00:42:34] here I credit it.

[00:42:36] Um,

[00:42:37] I credit it to culture.

[00:42:38] I think the,

[00:42:39] the people who came in were very different than the people who were here in the

[00:42:44] seventies and eighties in the state of Alaska,

[00:42:46] you had a real sense of wanting for independence.

[00:42:49] You had a lot of people who were fighting for it and felt as though it was

[00:42:53] necessary.

[00:42:54] Uh,

[00:42:55] today you don't see any of that.

[00:42:57] Uh,

[00:42:58] and I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that a lot of those people

[00:43:01] died off and the people who replaced them were folks from the lower 48 who

[00:43:05] came from progressive educations,

[00:43:07] who came from,

[00:43:08] um,

[00:43:09] progressive backgrounds with parents who were Democrat or Republican,

[00:43:13] who had a bunch of lower 48 opinions on politics,

[00:43:16] who weren't aware of how the state operated,

[00:43:19] um,

[00:43:19] who brought their kids up here and their kids might not have been able to make it

[00:43:24] on their own,

[00:43:24] but they were able to make it and raise those kids,

[00:43:27] raise them under those opinions.

[00:43:29] Now those people are in charge of everything.

[00:43:31] And the reality there is those,

[00:43:33] uh,

[00:43:34] those people are the worst kind of people to be running the state of Alaska

[00:43:40] because those people have no actual ties to the state of Alaska.

[00:43:45] They have very little knowledge of the land that they're residing over and they

[00:43:49] have very little knowledge of the people that they live amongst.

[00:43:52] Frankly,

[00:43:52] I don't think they respect the land.

[00:43:55] I don't think they respect the people.

[00:43:57] Um,

[00:43:57] you know,

[00:43:58] when I talk about like the cultural differences,

[00:44:01] um,

[00:44:03] uh,

[00:44:04] we,

[00:44:04] you know,

[00:44:04] here in the state of Alaska,

[00:44:05] we have a certain bit of resentment for people in the lower 48.

[00:44:09] I think that's healthy for a reason because frankly,

[00:44:13] um,

[00:44:14] you know,

[00:44:14] the people who come up here from the lower 48 often are the ones who do the

[00:44:18] worst damage to us.

[00:44:21] Um,

[00:44:21] you know,

[00:44:21] from a political angle and from a historical angle.

[00:44:25] And so I do think there's a reason for us to have our guard up in that sense.

[00:44:29] When 70% of our fishing industry is being shipped out to other countries,

[00:44:35] not even to other states,

[00:44:37] but the foreign markets that have nothing to do with our state,

[00:44:41] that has to stop.

[00:44:43] Uh,

[00:44:43] and the reality is in the seventies and eighties,

[00:44:46] if that shit was going on,

[00:44:47] there would have been fishermen out there with seal bombs making that stop.

[00:44:50] Not just,

[00:44:52] not just doing it with state control and government.

[00:44:55] So we have to get that kind of stuff under control.

[00:44:58] And I,

[00:44:58] you know,

[00:44:58] people hate the libertarians hate this side of me,

[00:45:02] certainly,

[00:45:02] but you know,

[00:45:04] I am very Alaska first in that regard.

[00:45:06] I would absolutely 100% support restricting foreign influence on our markets here.

[00:45:13] I would want a hundred percent support us restricting the ability for,

[00:45:17] for instance,

[00:45:18] Japanese or Chinese or Middle East,

[00:45:20] Eastern companies to come over here and use our waterways and take our fish to their own people.

[00:45:26] I think it's ridiculous that it's affected the market insanely because nobody who is local here can make any money off the fishing industry anymore because the market's been completely destabilized by foreigners coming over and taking all of our fishing industry.

[00:45:40] I don't like it.

[00:45:42] Um,

[00:45:42] and I tell you what,

[00:45:44] you won't find a fisherman down here that you talk to that likes it.

[00:45:47] So,

[00:45:48] uh,

[00:45:49] yeah,

[00:45:49] it's something that,

[00:45:51] uh,

[00:45:51] is certainly supported by the people here.

[00:45:54] Right.

[00:45:55] And honestly,

[00:45:56] I,

[00:45:57] I,

[00:45:57] I personally believe that that's the correct position,

[00:46:01] even the correct libertarian position.

[00:46:04] Um,

[00:46:05] I agree with you on that for everyone's state.

[00:46:08] Like we should all feel this way about our state because the whole idea behind a,

[00:46:14] a union is a union of 50 individual governments.

[00:46:19] And so I,

[00:46:21] I don't understand this,

[00:46:24] this mentality of,

[00:46:26] well,

[00:46:27] just the opposite.

[00:46:28] Not wanting your particular area,

[00:46:31] uh,

[00:46:32] or putting your particular area above others.

[00:46:36] Like there,

[00:46:37] there's nothing wrong with that.

[00:46:39] Well,

[00:46:39] and it's,

[00:46:40] you know,

[00:46:41] I visit other states.

[00:46:43] So I've been all over the U S at this point.

[00:46:45] I still haven't been up to your neck of the woods,

[00:46:46] which I need to do.

[00:46:47] But the,

[00:46:48] the point I always make to people is I'm Alaskan.

[00:46:52] I'm not going to go to Florida and tell my friends in Florida how they should live

[00:46:56] or how they should treat their land or respect the people around them.

[00:47:00] I don't know them that well.

[00:47:02] Like I visit there,

[00:47:03] but I'm not a Floridian.

[00:47:05] Uh,

[00:47:05] and so I think that's,

[00:47:07] you know,

[00:47:07] you have to take that into,

[00:47:08] to,

[00:47:09] to regard the difference here is that that is the entire history of Alaska from a federal

[00:47:14] government perspective.

[00:47:15] The entire history from their perspective is they've been coming here,

[00:47:19] telling these people how they can live and how to be better.

[00:47:22] And I think that was their first mistake.

[00:47:24] I think,

[00:47:25] you know,

[00:47:26] uh,

[00:47:27] uh,

[00:47:28] an interesting story here,

[00:47:29] right?

[00:47:30] Right.

[00:47:30] From a,

[00:47:31] from an independence perspective behind me is Soapy Smith,

[00:47:33] uh,

[00:47:34] up there.

[00:47:36] Soapy Smith is famous for dying.

[00:47:39] Uh,

[00:47:39] and,

[00:47:40] and he's famous for dying here in Alaska because of a guy named Frank Reed.

[00:47:44] This thing called the shootout on the Juneau wharf or on the Skagway wharf,

[00:47:49] rather.

[00:47:49] The shootout on the wharf really is what it's called.

[00:47:52] But,

[00:47:52] uh,

[00:47:54] late 1800s,

[00:47:56] uh,

[00:47:57] this guy comes to Alaska,

[00:47:59] becomes sort of,

[00:48:00] uh,

[00:48:01] the King of Skagway is what he was crowned,

[00:48:03] uh,

[00:48:04] in the papers.

[00:48:05] And he was paying off the only law enforcement officer in the area.

[00:48:09] This was a guy who was,

[00:48:10] had killed people in the lower 48 before he had ever got here.

[00:48:14] Um,

[00:48:15] it was a con man.

[00:48:16] He got the name Soapy for setting up a con game where he would sell soap that supposedly

[00:48:22] had money in it.

[00:48:23] It was a whole racket he ran.

[00:48:25] That's how he got his name.

[00:48:27] But by the time he got up here,

[00:48:28] he was doing things like running call boxes that had no lines running out.

[00:48:32] So he would tell you,

[00:48:34] you were sending a message and then there wasn't really one being sent.

[00:48:37] You would get a reply asking for money.

[00:48:39] You would give him money and nothing was ever sent.

[00:48:41] Right.

[00:48:42] Um,

[00:48:42] but you know,

[00:48:43] the most common thing he was doing was running,

[00:48:46] um,

[00:48:46] cheat gambling saloons,

[00:48:48] stealing people's money,

[00:48:49] uh,

[00:48:50] and then stealing people's gold as they were coming off of the Klondike in that

[00:48:54] area.

[00:48:55] Um,

[00:48:56] and eventually what got him killed was not the police.

[00:48:59] It wasn't the Mounties.

[00:49:00] It wasn't a group from Canada coming down to save us or some federal agents who were sent

[00:49:05] up from the Pinkerton group or any of that shit.

[00:49:08] It was a bunch of guys in Skagway who went,

[00:49:13] this guy fucking sucks.

[00:49:15] And like,

[00:49:16] he just stole from this guy who was this older minor in the area who was new to the

[00:49:21] area who'd come and struck it pretty well.

[00:49:24] And while he was standing in the middle of the town,

[00:49:26] uh,

[00:49:26] playing a shell game with one of Soapy's men,

[00:49:29] a guy just walked up and stole his gold purse and ran.

[00:49:32] Um,

[00:49:33] and everybody knew who had done it.

[00:49:34] And so it became this big issue where they said,

[00:49:36] Hey,

[00:49:36] listen,

[00:49:37] if,

[00:49:37] if people stop coming here because they don't feel safe,

[00:49:42] we're all going to go broke.

[00:49:44] We're not going to be able to feed our families.

[00:49:46] And so,

[00:49:47] you know,

[00:49:48] something had to be done.

[00:49:49] Well,

[00:49:49] it just so happened while they were having this conversation about something being done,

[00:49:52] Soapy found out about it and went to confront them.

[00:49:55] And Frank Reed and him had a shootout and killed each other.

[00:49:59] Um,

[00:49:59] and,

[00:50:00] uh,

[00:50:00] but the point,

[00:50:01] the reason I'm telling that story is to say that there wasn't a government to protect them.

[00:50:05] And that,

[00:50:06] that was historically the narrative here in Alaska.

[00:50:09] The people who came up here didn't have anybody to protect them.

[00:50:12] There wasn't this nice big fluffy people in suits and train cars everywhere.

[00:50:17] Like there was an Arizona or Colorado or Oregon or these other areas that didn't exist.

[00:50:22] There wasn't,

[00:50:23] there wasn't infrastructure.

[00:50:24] There was no such thing as infrastructure.

[00:50:26] There were mountains and rivers and woods.

[00:50:30] So it's just a,

[00:50:31] it was a very much different environment where those kinds of people were able to take hold.

[00:50:36] And so culturally you had to have independence because you'd be dead if not.

[00:50:40] And,

[00:50:41] uh,

[00:50:42] you know,

[00:50:42] I think that now because the government does what it does best,

[00:50:47] which is make everybody really comfy and subservient and the same,

[00:50:52] um,

[00:50:53] you know,

[00:50:53] that's sort of moving into Alaska.

[00:50:55] I think we're about 10 to 15 years culturally behind the curb.

[00:51:01] That's where I kind of always said we were.

[00:51:03] So,

[00:51:04] you know,

[00:51:04] for instance,

[00:51:05] like the whole cancel culture thing,

[00:51:08] all that kind of like those kinds of ideas,

[00:51:10] that stuff hasn't hit here yet.

[00:51:13] I mean,

[00:51:13] not really.

[00:51:14] It will like eventually it'll hit,

[00:51:16] you know,

[00:51:17] culturally it'll takes about 10,

[00:51:19] 15 years because what happens is a bunch of those,

[00:51:22] progressive folk up in California and New York and all those states.

[00:51:26] They slowly trickle into the state over that 10 or 15 year period and change the culture.

[00:51:31] And now everybody's talking about what they were talking about 15 years ago.

[00:51:35] Right.

[00:51:35] Uh,

[00:51:35] and so it's,

[00:51:36] it's sort of the,

[00:51:38] uh,

[00:51:39] faux culture that we've created instead of actually having anything real and tangible.

[00:51:44] Um,

[00:51:45] which is unfortunate,

[00:51:46] but,

[00:51:47] uh,

[00:51:48] you know,

[00:51:48] people like Joe,

[00:51:49] I think,

[00:51:51] uh,

[00:51:51] really saw the writing on the wall.

[00:51:53] When you go,

[00:51:54] when I was listening to a lot of his recordings in regards to what he saw politically happening here,

[00:51:58] everything he talked about back then is still happening,

[00:52:01] if not worse.

[00:52:02] And most of the stuff he said in regards to how they would go about taking more control

[00:52:08] was exactly what they did.

[00:52:09] He was spot on.

[00:52:11] Um,

[00:52:12] you know,

[00:52:12] his death is,

[00:52:14] uh,

[00:52:15] certainly marked,

[00:52:16] I think a end point for that cultural movement.

[00:52:20] Uh,

[00:52:21] you know,

[00:52:22] 92,

[00:52:22] 93,

[00:52:23] um,

[00:52:25] sort of the day the music died in regards to the,

[00:52:28] to the independence movement,

[00:52:29] I think in a way,

[00:52:30] um,

[00:52:31] I don't think that means they can't have a comeback,

[00:52:33] but as I said before,

[00:52:35] I think it would require them really taking a step into the modern age,

[00:52:38] which I,

[00:52:39] I don't know that they're really prepared to do yet.

[00:52:41] Um,

[00:52:42] but we'll see.

[00:52:43] I have,

[00:52:44] I have hopes for them.

[00:52:46] Well,

[00:52:47] I'm,

[00:52:48] I'm definitely hoping that,

[00:52:49] um,

[00:52:49] um,

[00:52:50] Utah and their lawsuit right now,

[00:52:53] trying to take control of,

[00:52:55] of our public land.

[00:52:56] I'm really hoping that that kind of helps different movements like this and other

[00:53:02] states.

[00:53:02] So I'm really hoping that,

[00:53:04] uh,

[00:53:05] what,

[00:53:05] what we're trying to do here can,

[00:53:07] can definitely get something going there and possibly other states.

[00:53:13] The other thing that I've,

[00:53:14] I've spoken about in regards to that,

[00:53:16] that like,

[00:53:17] you know,

[00:53:17] he did constitutional carry.

[00:53:19] So this would be the next thing you could push for is we used to have a thing here called the national or the Alaskan firearms act,

[00:53:26] which said it was manufactured here in the state of Alaska.

[00:53:29] And it said,

[00:53:30] so it wasn't under federal jurisdiction.

[00:53:31] And so,

[00:53:33] obviously the federal government flipped its lid and the state ended up rescinding that.

[00:53:38] And so I think it's something that should be put back in place.

[00:53:42] Um,

[00:53:43] and I've,

[00:53:43] I've been arguing for that for a while now.

[00:53:46] Um,

[00:53:47] I think because of places like Texas and other states,

[00:53:50] it's opened the door sort of to reinstate some of those things.

[00:53:52] So,

[00:53:53] yeah.

[00:53:54] Um,

[00:53:56] so what,

[00:53:57] what ended up happening to Joe?

[00:54:02] Yeah.

[00:54:03] So in,

[00:54:04] um,

[00:54:05] 92,

[00:54:06] Joe goes missing.

[00:54:07] Um,

[00:54:08] and,

[00:54:09] uh,

[00:54:10] this happens right after.

[00:54:12] So timeline wise,

[00:54:14] I guess I go back a little bit.

[00:54:15] So he,

[00:54:16] he ends up submitting to the UN.

[00:54:19] This is back in,

[00:54:20] I think early eighties,

[00:54:22] technically when he first submitted.

[00:54:24] Um,

[00:54:24] and the way that it worked was he was saying,

[00:54:26] Hey,

[00:54:27] I want to address,

[00:54:27] um,

[00:54:28] this section of the UN on territories because previous to Alaska becoming a state,

[00:54:35] that was who actually had jurisdiction over us was the UN.

[00:54:39] That was who was actually making decisions regarding the land because we were territory.

[00:54:43] Right.

[00:54:44] Um,

[00:54:45] so what ends up going on is he says,

[00:54:47] listen,

[00:54:47] because I disagree with statehood,

[00:54:50] this now takes it out of the federal jurisdiction and puts this in your jurisdiction because you're

[00:54:55] the ones who actually were the court and the deciders and all this stuff to begin with.

[00:54:59] Um,

[00:55:00] so he says,

[00:55:01] I want to address the UN.

[00:55:02] The way that process works is you have to get a sponsor.

[00:55:06] Um,

[00:55:06] now this stuff was sitting there for quite some time,

[00:55:09] but eventually some letters,

[00:55:11] I have not seen these.

[00:55:13] So this is,

[00:55:13] this stuff comes with a bit of grain of salt,

[00:55:15] but I'll,

[00:55:15] I have five or six witness accounts of all of this.

[00:55:19] Um,

[00:55:21] some letters were exchanged between Joe Vogler and Ali Khamenei of Iran.

[00:55:26] Ali Khamenei agreed to sponsor Vogler to speak at the UN.

[00:55:32] This was at a time when Iran was a member of the UN and was having very contentious relations with the United States.

[00:55:38] You have to keep in mind also,

[00:55:40] this is 91,

[00:55:41] 92.

[00:55:42] This is right after the cold war ends.

[00:55:45] So that's a very important time period to put in context for people.

[00:55:49] If you don't know about the cold war,

[00:55:51] historically,

[00:55:51] we killed and the Russians killed a lot of people secretly.

[00:55:55] Um,

[00:55:56] and,

[00:55:56] and this was just,

[00:55:57] you know,

[00:55:58] it's just something we all accept as Americans and kind of,

[00:56:01] you know,

[00:56:01] brush over.

[00:56:02] But I think that,

[00:56:03] you know,

[00:56:03] does matter here in the context of things.

[00:56:06] Uh,

[00:56:06] because a lot of those people were killed for what I would see as very trivial reasons.

[00:56:10] And so when people tell me,

[00:56:12] well,

[00:56:12] this conspiracy or this is all,

[00:56:14] you know,

[00:56:14] hokey,

[00:56:15] it's like,

[00:56:15] well,

[00:56:16] yeah,

[00:56:16] but we were doing this just a year before.

[00:56:19] So it's like,

[00:56:20] um,

[00:56:21] but,

[00:56:22] um,

[00:56:23] Joe,

[00:56:23] about a week or two before,

[00:56:25] or actually it's about closer to a week before he left,

[00:56:28] uh,

[00:56:29] to go speak at the UN.

[00:56:30] Um,

[00:56:31] his neighbor notices that his dogs aren't outside.

[00:56:35] Um,

[00:56:36] he had a goose.

[00:56:37] His goose was not outside.

[00:56:38] Um,

[00:56:39] he goes over to the house,

[00:56:40] checks the porch and stuff,

[00:56:42] sees that the animals are locked inside.

[00:56:44] So he goes ahead and calls the cops because the vehicle's sitting there and says,

[00:56:48] Hey,

[00:56:48] he's missing.

[00:56:49] So he reports Joe missing.

[00:56:51] Cops come out.

[00:56:52] They find no evidence of a struggle,

[00:56:56] no evidence of breaking and entering nothing houses,

[00:56:59] um,

[00:57:00] doors closed,

[00:57:00] locked up.

[00:57:01] Dogs are inside.

[00:57:03] goose is locked in a cage.

[00:57:06] Um,

[00:57:07] so everything seemed as though,

[00:57:09] Joe had just left it like that,

[00:57:10] except for the fact that every day he let his dogs out.

[00:57:13] And so everything seemed weird about the situation.

[00:57:15] Anybody who knew him knew everything was weird.

[00:57:17] Um,

[00:57:19] and Joe was missing.

[00:57:20] His hat was missing.

[00:57:21] He had a pocket pistol that was missing,

[00:57:24] um,

[00:57:24] that he normally had on him.

[00:57:26] Uh,

[00:57:27] and so these things were very odd.

[00:57:29] Um,

[00:57:30] now at first,

[00:57:31] for about six months,

[00:57:33] the police reported that,

[00:57:34] um,

[00:57:35] um,

[00:57:35] Joe simply walked off and disappeared because of his age.

[00:57:38] He was like 90 years old at this point,

[00:57:41] but was still politically active,

[00:57:43] was still speaking publicly,

[00:57:45] was still the same guy he had been for 30 years at that point.

[00:57:49] And he looked no different.

[00:57:50] Uh,

[00:57:50] the reality there is that,

[00:57:52] uh,

[00:57:53] again,

[00:57:53] when I see it was cut from a different cloth,

[00:57:55] I legitimately think Joe would have likely lived to a hundred,

[00:57:59] if not older.

[00:58:00] Um,

[00:58:00] the guy was very spry for his age.

[00:58:02] The guy worked his entire life,

[00:58:04] um,

[00:58:05] and took very good care of himself.

[00:58:07] But,

[00:58:08] uh,

[00:58:09] so it,

[00:58:09] you know,

[00:58:10] he was in good health.

[00:58:11] And so everybody who came,

[00:58:13] they were trying to claim that he was like senile or had,

[00:58:16] and just wandered off and,

[00:58:18] and walked off.

[00:58:19] And,

[00:58:19] and anybody who knew him knew that was horse shit.

[00:58:21] And so this huge campaign gets created.

[00:58:24] These signs get put everywhere in Fairbanks,

[00:58:26] the surrounding area in the state to say,

[00:58:28] where is Joe?

[00:58:29] And this big investigation,

[00:58:31] um,

[00:58:32] really from the AIP begins where they hire a retired cop,

[00:58:37] uh,

[00:58:37] to come in and,

[00:58:38] and perform an investigation into what happened to Joe.

[00:58:42] Um,

[00:58:42] this guy finds out that the dogs had been drugged,

[00:58:46] um,

[00:58:47] and that there was,

[00:58:48] uh,

[00:58:49] the explanation from the police that was,

[00:58:51] was given at the time was that that was done by Joe because he was planning to take them to the vet.

[00:58:57] Again,

[00:58:58] that doesn't make any sense.

[00:58:59] Uh,

[00:59:00] and anybody who has animals knows that doesn't make any sense.

[00:59:02] Um,

[00:59:03] and everybody who knew Joe knew that didn't make any sense.

[00:59:06] So that added another layer of oddity to it.

[00:59:09] Um,

[00:59:10] and then,

[00:59:11] uh,

[00:59:12] eventually,

[00:59:13] uh,

[00:59:14] because of a bunch of public calls to action on radio and other things in the public,

[00:59:19] the troopers and police were sort of forced to take another look at the case and really start to dig into things.

[00:59:24] And,

[00:59:25] um,

[00:59:25] um,

[00:59:25] it's around that time that they claim they get an anonymous tip,

[00:59:29] um,

[00:59:30] that this guy Manfred West,

[00:59:32] uh,

[00:59:33] had been involved with,

[00:59:34] uh,

[00:59:34] driving a truck that had a bullet hole in it that was sighted,

[00:59:38] um,

[00:59:39] near there in Fairbanks.

[00:59:41] And,

[00:59:42] uh,

[00:59:43] police,

[00:59:44] without really any cause,

[00:59:45] say that's who was driving it.

[00:59:47] They search for the truck.

[00:59:48] Um,

[00:59:50] then they end up finding out that Manfred West had been released from a halfway house after being arrested for burglary and check fraud.

[00:59:59] Some,

[01:00:00] for some weird reason,

[01:00:01] this is very odd in general,

[01:00:04] he was moved from jail to a halfway house and just immediately released,

[01:00:11] even though he was supposed to be serving a sentence.

[01:00:13] Um,

[01:00:15] he got to Alaska before that under an assumed name.

[01:00:20] He flew into the state under a fake name,

[01:00:22] um,

[01:00:24] from another,

[01:00:25] from,

[01:00:25] I believe Oregon actually,

[01:00:26] if I'm not mistaken,

[01:00:27] but I might be wrong there.

[01:00:29] Um,

[01:00:29] so he flies in under an assumed name.

[01:00:31] He then goes to Fairbanks.

[01:00:34] Uh,

[01:00:34] he,

[01:00:38] you know,

[01:00:39] he,

[01:00:39] he does the check fraud stuff and all that.

[01:00:42] Put all that aside.

[01:00:43] He ends up,

[01:00:45] uh,

[01:00:45] getting fingered by this anonymous source that he's the one driving this truck that has a bullet hole in it that the cops are looking for.

[01:00:52] So,

[01:00:53] they decide to pursue Manfred West.

[01:00:57] They find out that he left that halfway house that he was just let out of and went to one of his brother's cabins.

[01:01:04] So they go up to his brother's cabin.

[01:01:06] They have him barricaded in the cabin.

[01:01:10] They claim that they see him with a rifle in the window.

[01:01:12] Um,

[01:01:13] Um,

[01:01:13] and then a phone call ensues between him and a guy named Trooper McCann who was heading up the entire thing.

[01:01:19] McCann claims at that point that Manfred West admitted to killing Joe Vogler.

[01:01:27] Um,

[01:01:28] now this is,

[01:01:29] again,

[01:01:30] you have to take all these people words for it.

[01:01:32] So,

[01:01:32] take all this with a grain of salt.

[01:01:35] The way that this all went down was the troopers loaded up an RV with a bunch of people,

[01:01:39] parked it outside this guy's house,

[01:01:41] and just began basically besieging him in my opinion.

[01:01:45] They didn't really ever really try to get this out in my,

[01:01:47] this guy out in my opinion.

[01:01:48] And I think,

[01:01:50] ultimately,

[01:01:50] their goal was for him not to survive.

[01:01:52] Um,

[01:01:53] and that's explainable by what follows up is the cabin is lit on fire.

[01:02:00] Now,

[01:02:00] Joe's cabin?

[01:02:01] The troopers?

[01:02:02] No,

[01:02:02] this is the cabin that Manfred West ran to while he is being pursued as a suspect.

[01:02:09] Okay.

[01:02:09] Uh,

[01:02:09] this is his brother's cabin.

[01:02:11] And,

[01:02:12] so the cabin is now on fire.

[01:02:14] The police claim this was done by Manfred West because he was on fire.

[01:02:18] He had explosives in the cabin.

[01:02:20] Um,

[01:02:22] I've heard other people claim that the police maybe wanted to burn him out or wanted to kill him.

[01:02:28] And,

[01:02:29] uh,

[01:02:29] you know,

[01:02:29] the reality there is he really should have died.

[01:02:32] Uh,

[01:02:33] the cabin was allowed to burn to a smoldering heat because they decided that the fire department,

[01:02:39] it was too dangerous for them to get involved.

[01:02:42] Um,

[01:02:43] so they allowed the cabin to completely burn.

[01:02:45] Um,

[01:02:47] manfred West fell through the crawl space of the cabin into a puddle of freezing water.

[01:02:53] And because of that survived the cabin's burning.

[01:02:57] Um,

[01:02:58] he was then arrested at that point on case of the so-called confession,

[01:03:05] which he then tried to recant immediately.

[01:03:07] Um,

[01:03:10] this led to a court case.

[01:03:13] Um,

[01:03:14] but the court case came after another anonymous tip comes from a so-called prison inmate that was with Manfred West,

[01:03:23] who knew where Joe Vogler's body was,

[01:03:26] who told that to police.

[01:03:28] Police then went there,

[01:03:29] found the body.

[01:03:31] Um,

[01:03:31] so again,

[01:03:32] not only the,

[01:03:33] the information that got Manfred West fingered in the first place and the information that got the body,

[01:03:39] both came from anonymous sources.

[01:03:41] We will never know those people's name.

[01:03:44] We don't know that they actually had contact with Manfred West or any connection to the state of Alaska at all.

[01:03:50] Um,

[01:03:50] as far as we're concerned,

[01:03:52] they are ghosts.

[01:03:53] Um,

[01:03:54] and so that's a big problem for me and the narrative of things,

[01:03:57] but you know,

[01:03:58] that I'll,

[01:03:59] I talk about,

[01:04:00] but,

[01:04:00] uh,

[01:04:01] Manfred West is then charged,

[01:04:03] um,

[01:04:04] with all the other crimes he had before,

[01:04:06] as well as now murder.

[01:04:09] Um,

[01:04:09] Joe's body is found with a gunshot wound to the back of the head and the back.

[01:04:14] Um,

[01:04:15] and where was he found?

[01:04:18] He had a gun wrapped in a blue tarp about a mile outside of Fairbanks.

[01:04:24] Hmm.

[01:04:25] He had been buried in a shallow grave.

[01:04:29] Um,

[01:04:30] I don't know if his hat was ever found.

[01:04:33] There's a lot of things about it.

[01:04:35] I never got to find out.

[01:04:36] I,

[01:04:36] unfortunately I haven't got to talk to one of the family members that would know.

[01:04:40] Um,

[01:04:41] but,

[01:04:41] um,

[01:04:43] yeah,

[01:04:43] his pocket pistol.

[01:04:44] I don't know whether his 32 or 32 ACP or 22 long rifle.

[01:04:48] I've heard it reported to both ways,

[01:04:50] but he had a small pocket pistol he carried and he had a,

[01:04:53] his hat.

[01:04:54] I don't know what of that was ever recovered.

[01:04:57] If any of it was recovered.

[01:04:58] Um,

[01:04:59] unfortunately.

[01:05:00] And,

[01:05:01] uh,

[01:05:03] you know,

[01:05:04] the condition of his body,

[01:05:06] everything like the,

[01:05:07] the problems with the case for me narratively start there.

[01:05:11] But,

[01:05:13] and really start with the murder scene in the first place and what they claim

[01:05:17] happened from a police angle.

[01:05:18] The police,

[01:05:19] uh,

[01:05:19] version of events is that Manfred West was attempting to sell plastic

[01:05:25] explosives to Joe Vogler and Joe Vogler didn't want these plastics

[01:05:30] explosives and told him to leave.

[01:05:32] And this turned into a robbery in which Manfred West attempted to rob

[01:05:37] Vogler.

[01:05:38] They had a shootout and Manfred West shot and killed Vogler.

[01:05:41] And went and buried his body.

[01:05:43] The problem with this story is that Manfred West was a skinny meth head

[01:05:49] looking dude.

[01:05:50] Um,

[01:05:51] even when he was young and the photos,

[01:05:52] he isn't great.

[01:05:53] Now he looks even horrible,

[01:05:54] but back then he wasn't this big,

[01:05:56] you know,

[01:05:57] he was a thug,

[01:05:58] thuggish guy,

[01:05:59] but he wasn't big by any means.

[01:06:01] Um,

[01:06:02] and he's one guy keep in mind.

[01:06:04] Now the story goes,

[01:06:06] he shoots Vogler twice on his property.

[01:06:09] This had to have happened there for the police's story to be correct.

[01:06:14] So how is it that the police go there and go there after he's reported missing and report

[01:06:21] nothing askew?

[01:06:22] There's no,

[01:06:23] there's no scuffs on the ground.

[01:06:25] There's no blood.

[01:06:26] There's no bullets.

[01:06:27] There's no nothing.

[01:06:27] Manfred West is not a smart guy.

[01:06:29] This is not a sophisticated criminal.

[01:06:31] This guy is in low life who didn't have the skills to do that kind of shit.

[01:06:36] In my opinion,

[01:06:37] um,

[01:06:37] let alone transport a body that you've just shot in a yard without anybody around knowing when he had,

[01:06:46] you know,

[01:06:46] neighbors relatively close.

[01:06:47] Now you have to move that body that is now just limp dead weight,

[01:06:52] quite literally,

[01:06:53] into a back of a truck that you're wrapping in tarp.

[01:06:56] Like these things all create a mess,

[01:06:58] which would be present.

[01:07:00] Something would have been there.

[01:07:01] Not to mention the fact that the motive for robbery doesn't fit whatsoever.

[01:07:06] Because nothing is taken from Vogler's house of note.

[01:07:09] There's no gold missing.

[01:07:11] This guy was,

[01:07:12] you know,

[01:07:12] a miner.

[01:07:13] He had gold at his home.

[01:07:14] Uh,

[01:07:15] he had mining equipment at the house.

[01:07:16] He had,

[01:07:17] uh,

[01:07:18] you know,

[01:07:19] antiques and guns and,

[01:07:20] and tons of things that would have been a value that could have been stolen.

[01:07:24] And this is at a time period where it would have been pretty hard to actually track the items down.

[01:07:29] So,

[01:07:29] um,

[01:07:30] the robbery thing just doesn't fit as a motive for me.

[01:07:33] And,

[01:07:33] and what really,

[01:07:36] what really makes things odder for me is the fact that I've talked to,

[01:07:40] uh,

[01:07:41] multiple mom.

[01:07:44] Yeah.

[01:07:44] The Iran Contra,

[01:07:45] uh,

[01:07:46] scandal.

[01:07:47] I see Sean talking about in the chat there,

[01:07:48] but yeah,

[01:07:49] the other issue is the,

[01:07:50] um,

[01:07:51] right after,

[01:07:52] um,

[01:07:53] Manfred West and all this,

[01:07:54] and,

[01:07:54] and all this goes down and supposedly he kills them and everything goes to prison.

[01:07:58] And I've got multiple people,

[01:08:00] um,

[01:08:01] you know,

[01:08:01] and I don't trust anything the guy says.

[01:08:03] So all of this I take with a giant heaping spoonful of salt.

[01:08:06] But,

[01:08:07] um,

[01:08:08] you know,

[01:08:08] he has told multiple people in that prison that he's in that,

[01:08:12] you know,

[01:08:12] he didn't kill Joe or he was paid to kill Joe or his family was taken care of down in the lower 48.

[01:08:20] And he has money on his books because of it.

[01:08:23] And like,

[01:08:23] he is told as many stories as there are to tell to anybody that will listen to him from prison.

[01:08:29] And every version of the story has one thing in common,

[01:08:32] which is that the government was somehow involved or somehow involved with him or the entire situation.

[01:08:39] Um,

[01:08:40] certainly he doesn't take responsibility for all of it.

[01:08:44] Um,

[01:08:44] and still to this day speaks that way,

[01:08:47] um,

[01:08:47] from prison.

[01:08:48] So I,

[01:08:49] I think there's,

[01:08:50] um,

[01:08:51] there's some big problems with Manfred West as the actual killer.

[01:08:55] Um,

[01:08:55] and,

[01:08:56] you know,

[01:08:56] to quote,

[01:08:57] um,

[01:08:58] Jack Coghill,

[01:08:59] who was arguably one of our most famous political figures here from the state and certainly one of the most respected.

[01:09:05] He's a lieutenant governor and just in general,

[01:09:09] known by a lot of Alaskans,

[01:09:11] a great person.

[01:09:12] Um,

[01:09:13] you know,

[01:09:14] he went on record as saying that it would,

[01:09:16] if it was Manfred West who did this,

[01:09:19] it was the cleanest extraction of a human being he had ever seen in his life.

[01:09:23] Uh,

[01:09:24] you know,

[01:09:24] this was,

[01:09:25] it is though they plucked Vogler off the face of the earth,

[01:09:29] wrapped him in a tarp and dropped him in Fairbanks.

[01:09:33] There's no evidence anywhere that Manfred West shot him there,

[01:09:38] at that property,

[01:09:39] wrapped him up in a tarp,

[01:09:40] moved him.

[01:09:41] There's no evidence of it.

[01:09:42] The only thing the cops had was a bullet hole in the hood of the car,

[01:09:46] um,

[01:09:47] of the truck that Manfred West was driving,

[01:09:49] which could have been caused by any firearm.

[01:09:52] No evidence was ever presented.

[01:09:53] Why?

[01:09:54] Well,

[01:09:54] because when this went to trial,

[01:09:56] Manfred West pleads no contest and goes to prison.

[01:10:00] Uh,

[01:10:00] there is no trial.

[01:10:01] He does,

[01:10:02] no,

[01:10:03] no evidence was ever presented.

[01:10:04] Nothing was ever made public.

[01:10:06] Um,

[01:10:07] he pleads no contest,

[01:10:09] gets a deal and is sent to what is at the time,

[01:10:11] the cushiest prison in the state.

[01:10:14] Um,

[01:10:15] Manfred West was already going to jail before this.

[01:10:18] You know,

[01:10:19] he had the burglary charge.

[01:10:20] He had the other charges.

[01:10:21] So I think Manfred West saw an opportunity,

[01:10:24] um,

[01:10:26] you know,

[01:10:26] there,

[01:10:26] I think he was always going to take the deal.

[01:10:28] I never,

[01:10:29] I,

[01:10:29] and the fact that the deal was offered is the problem in the first place,

[01:10:34] uh,

[01:10:35] that should make everybody's ears perk up.

[01:10:37] Um,

[01:10:38] and because that was a no contest case,

[01:10:41] there is no evidence submitted.

[01:10:43] So the,

[01:10:44] the cops don't have to make an argument for why Manfred West did this.

[01:10:47] This is why the only version of events you get from a public perspective is,

[01:10:53] this was a C4 sale gone wrong.

[01:10:56] Even though anybody with half a brain sale,

[01:10:59] I mean,

[01:11:00] I've talked to multiple police investigators regarding this case and multiple cops,

[01:11:04] retired police officers.

[01:11:06] Anybody who hears the,

[01:11:08] the chain of events goes,

[01:11:09] that's not how that works.

[01:11:11] What the fuck?

[01:11:11] Like,

[01:11:12] this isn't,

[01:11:12] you don't like,

[01:11:13] you can't do what,

[01:11:15] what was done here was a complete misjustice to him at the time.

[01:11:20] And looking back on it now,

[01:11:23] we can go either.

[01:11:25] This was a lot of police corruption and a lot of police,

[01:11:28] not wanting to look bad,

[01:11:29] or there were bigger powers at play here.

[01:11:33] And in my opinion,

[01:11:34] I think there are bigger powers at play.

[01:11:36] I think,

[01:11:37] you know,

[01:11:38] I think a lot of people will disagree with me,

[01:11:40] even in the AFP,

[01:11:41] even people who knew Joe will disagree with my opinion on this.

[01:11:44] But I think there is a real good chance that,

[01:11:46] um,

[01:11:47] Joe's death in a way is another one of those victims of the cold war sort of era.

[01:11:52] Um,

[01:11:54] I believe Alaska was seen as a strategic,

[01:11:57] uh,

[01:11:59] asset by the U.S. military and the federal government.

[01:12:02] I believe that because,

[01:12:04] uh,

[01:12:05] Joe Vogler at the time was the chair of the party that had just become governor of the state of Alaska,

[01:12:13] with Hickel,

[01:12:13] I think that there was a real problem seen by a federal military level,

[01:12:20] um,

[01:12:20] um,

[01:12:21] that if Alaskan independence happened,

[01:12:23] how would the United States use the state of Alaska as a strategic entity anymore?

[01:12:29] Would they have the same freedoms they had here to operate their spy mechanisms,

[01:12:34] to operate their flights,

[01:12:35] to operate the air bases and things here?

[01:12:38] And I think the answer to that was legitimately,

[01:12:41] yeah,

[01:12:41] I don't think the Alaskans would have booted the federal government out completely to that degree.

[01:12:46] But I think that was the sentiment and opinion.

[01:12:49] And so I think the decision was made in some degree to remove the problem.

[01:12:54] Um,

[01:12:54] whether that means they paid somebody who was already a CIA or FBI informant like Manfred West,

[01:13:00] because I do think he fits the bill for being an informant of some kind,

[01:13:06] um,

[01:13:07] is certainly possible.

[01:13:08] Whether they already had Manfred West as an informant previously because he had worked with the AIP before,

[01:13:14] is probably likely to me.

[01:13:16] I think that's probably what happened.

[01:13:18] Um,

[01:13:19] I think that West was most likely an informant.

[01:13:23] I think that West had already been reporting on things the AIP was doing.

[01:13:28] And I think that when he flew back to Alaska under a different name,

[01:13:32] the goal was to simply have him placed there to monitor the situation.

[01:13:36] I think when he got there,

[01:13:38] he quickly found out that Vogler had been in contact with the UN and was planning to leave.

[01:13:44] And I believe whatever timeline of events that existed was moved up.

[01:13:48] And it was seen as though he had to be removed from the equation before he could be allowed to speak at that event.

[01:13:55] Uh,

[01:13:56] and so whether Manfred West acted alone or with other people,

[01:14:01] I think he was involved with the killing of Joe Vogler.

[01:14:05] I just don't necessarily know that he did it alone.

[01:14:08] Um,

[01:14:09] because I don't think it's easy for him to have done it alone.

[01:14:11] And I think he exactly fits the bill of a criminal who can only do easy things.

[01:14:18] Well,

[01:14:19] not every criminal is up to the challenge to actually be like a criminal mastermind.

[01:14:24] Um,

[01:14:26] some are just good at being petty theft or petty thieves or,

[01:14:30] um,

[01:14:31] just small time fraud fraud guys.

[01:14:35] I mean,

[01:14:35] it's,

[01:14:36] but getting away with,

[01:14:38] with murder,

[01:14:40] that's,

[01:14:40] that's a whole different level.

[01:14:42] I mean,

[01:14:43] there,

[01:14:43] there's a reason why,

[01:14:44] um,

[01:14:45] even our CIA who doesn't murder for any other reason than,

[01:14:51] you know,

[01:14:51] for,

[01:14:52] you know,

[01:14:52] the sanctity of the United States.

[01:14:54] Oh yeah.

[01:14:55] But there,

[01:14:58] there's a reason why they get trained,

[01:15:00] uh,

[01:15:00] to professionally do it.

[01:15:01] There's a reason why,

[01:15:03] you know,

[01:15:03] there's a,

[01:15:04] a black market for assassins.

[01:15:06] Um,

[01:15:08] that,

[01:15:08] that is a whole different level of,

[01:15:10] of criminality.

[01:15:12] So to be able to,

[01:15:14] and so what,

[01:15:16] what timeframe was this?

[01:15:18] So this was,

[01:15:19] uh,

[01:15:19] uh,

[01:15:19] you said 91 to 93.

[01:15:22] Yes.

[01:15:23] So,

[01:15:23] so Joe's found,

[01:15:25] I believe it's,

[01:15:26] it's either early 92 or 93 is when he's actually found.

[01:15:30] Okay.

[01:15:31] So,

[01:15:31] I mean,

[01:15:32] that's,

[01:15:32] that's after DNA has already become a thing that they can look for.

[01:15:38] Right.

[01:15:39] So it's starting to become more and more difficult to get away with murder.

[01:15:46] Um,

[01:15:46] with,

[01:15:47] especially with a public figure and even in Alaska,

[01:15:52] that that's still going to be incredibly difficult.

[01:15:55] So,

[01:15:56] yeah.

[01:15:57] Even just,

[01:15:58] even just hearing this,

[01:15:59] it doesn't seem like somebody who is,

[01:16:02] uh,

[01:16:03] not the brightest crown in the box is going to be capable of pulling off something like this.

[01:16:11] Yeah.

[01:16:12] Yeah.

[01:16:13] And this,

[01:16:13] that's something I,

[01:16:14] I definitely think is obvious to me.

[01:16:18] He,

[01:16:19] you know,

[01:16:20] he liked to pretend at the time,

[01:16:22] I think that he was almost like a junior mobster.

[01:16:25] This guy was like,

[01:16:27] slicked his hair back and wore one of those golf caps and stuff.

[01:16:31] And he tried to make himself look as,

[01:16:33] um,

[01:16:34] you know,

[01:16:34] sort of that,

[01:16:35] that Sopranos look,

[01:16:37] I suppose.

[01:16:37] But,

[01:16:37] uh,

[01:16:38] in reality,

[01:16:39] the guy was a two bit criminal.

[01:16:40] He was a burglar and check fraud and petty shit.

[01:16:44] Uh,

[01:16:44] yeah.

[01:16:45] Didn't amount to much.

[01:16:46] And he got caught.

[01:16:48] Um,

[01:16:48] you know,

[01:16:49] so this wasn't a successful criminal.

[01:16:51] This guy was not intelligent by any stretch of the means.

[01:16:54] Um,

[01:16:55] and I've never seen proof that he is certainly,

[01:16:57] um,

[01:16:58] you know,

[01:16:58] he's a halfway decent artist.

[01:17:01] That's about the only good thing I've heard about the guy.

[01:17:03] Um,

[01:17:04] his nickname was cartoon Freddy for a reason.

[01:17:06] I guess he made signs.

[01:17:08] That's a,

[01:17:09] that's originally how he got involved with the AIP from my understanding is he was making some signs for them and stuff.

[01:17:15] Um,

[01:17:16] and did work for them early on.

[01:17:18] But that to me is ultimately what I think.

[01:17:21] I,

[01:17:22] I don't think that was on,

[01:17:23] I,

[01:17:23] I think that was on purpose.

[01:17:25] I think he was there because he was an informant to begin with.

[01:17:28] Um,

[01:17:29] because the movement from the beginning was seen by the federal government,

[01:17:32] specifically the FBI and CIA as a risk to the cold war that they were in the middle of being involved in.

[01:17:41] But realistically,

[01:17:42] Vogler arrives in Alaska and starts getting mentioned in Alaska from a political angle in the early,

[01:17:49] late forties,

[01:17:50] early fifties.

[01:17:51] By the 1950s,

[01:17:53] he's talking about politics,

[01:17:54] at least locally in his area.

[01:17:56] And that's already at the start of things.

[01:17:59] So the entirety of the cold war,

[01:18:01] he is politically active in Alaska.

[01:18:03] So you think for a second,

[01:18:05] he was not on the federal government's radar.

[01:18:07] I suggest you read a book about like that time period.

[01:18:11] Cause there's no way in hell that he was not being monitored from a federal government perspective,

[01:18:17] just because of the climate between the U S and Russia in the fifties,

[01:18:22] sixties and seventies.

[01:18:23] Right.

[01:18:23] There was no way that wasn't happening.

[01:18:25] Everyone.

[01:18:26] If you were,

[01:18:27] yeah.

[01:18:28] I mean,

[01:18:29] if you think about it,

[01:18:30] like low level members of the black Panthers were being monitored in major cities,

[01:18:34] just because they mentioned communism or Russia or any of that.

[01:18:39] If you think for a second,

[01:18:40] a guy 50 some miles from them,

[01:18:43] isn't going to be being referenced by them.

[01:18:45] You know?

[01:18:46] Yeah.

[01:18:46] He was being monitored.

[01:18:47] I think the whole movement was being monitored from the very beginning.

[01:18:50] So when he formed the party in the seventies,

[01:18:53] I guarantee you there were already informants placed within the AIP,

[01:18:58] uh,

[01:18:59] because that was seen as beneficial.

[01:19:01] They already had multiple federal bases up here and military bases.

[01:19:05] It's not like they had a shortage of ability to house them.

[01:19:09] Right.

[01:19:11] So is it,

[01:19:12] is there any possibility that it is less of a,

[01:19:19] um,

[01:19:19] we we've got to get rid of this guy and more of a,

[01:19:23] um,

[01:19:24] like this is a thorn in our side,

[01:19:26] but they didn't mean to kill him.

[01:19:29] Um,

[01:19:29] that's certainly possible.

[01:19:31] I mean,

[01:19:32] personally,

[01:19:32] I think that,

[01:19:34] I think that I,

[01:19:36] I honestly think that if they were monitoring him,

[01:19:40] the thing that would have set them over was the,

[01:19:43] uh,

[01:19:44] the UN issue.

[01:19:46] The fact that he's going to give a speech,

[01:19:48] this is going to become a national issue.

[01:19:51] He's going to talk about this.

[01:19:53] Media is going to pick it up.

[01:19:54] People are going to talk about it.

[01:19:56] Uh,

[01:19:56] it's going to force Canada to talk about it,

[01:19:59] which was something he was trying to do,

[01:20:00] um,

[01:20:01] from some of the people I've spoken with.

[01:20:03] Um,

[01:20:04] it would have forced hands.

[01:20:06] Yeah.

[01:20:06] And so it would have sort of changed that power dynamic a bit.

[01:20:10] And at this point,

[01:20:11] you know,

[01:20:12] again,

[01:20:12] when I talk about legally,

[01:20:14] Vogler was attempting to basically go to legal war with the U S federal government,

[01:20:19] like quite literally,

[01:20:19] like in a nutshell,

[01:20:21] that's what he's attempting to do.

[01:20:23] Um,

[01:20:23] you know,

[01:20:24] and I think there was something interesting about that because realistically,

[01:20:28] that's what our founding fathers attempted to do far before they ever picked up a rifle or a sword.

[01:20:33] Um,

[01:20:34] they attempted to legally argue their way out of what the colonies were going through.

[01:20:40] And eventually that failed and they were forced into violent,

[01:20:44] uh,

[01:20:46] revolution.

[01:20:47] Vogler was attempting to do what was the last Hail Mary.

[01:20:52] Um,

[01:20:52] and I think it's telling that the only figure that really comes after him to talk about real independence in the state is Schaefer Cox,

[01:21:02] uh,

[01:21:03] uh,

[01:21:03] and Schaefer Cox is a whole nother story that I've been working on telling in a more meaningful way.

[01:21:10] Um,

[01:21:10] um,

[01:21:11] I will say,

[01:21:12] I believe if my dates are right,

[01:21:14] he is out of prison in three days.

[01:21:16] Um,

[01:21:17] wow.

[01:21:17] Which most people don't even know,

[01:21:19] uh,

[01:21:20] because the Wikipedia is wrong.

[01:21:22] Yeah.

[01:21:23] Uh,

[01:21:24] Wikipedia is off by 10 years on his accounting.

[01:21:26] They state that he's getting out in like 2034.

[01:21:31] But what happened was he went back to state court and the state court cut down some of his charges and cut 10 years off his sentence.

[01:21:38] And so his release date was October,

[01:21:40] 20,

[01:21:40] 24.

[01:21:42] Um,

[01:21:43] and he was,

[01:21:44] he created the,

[01:21:47] uh,

[01:21:47] Alaska militia.

[01:21:49] He created,

[01:21:50] uh,

[01:21:50] the Liberty Bell system in Fairbanks.

[01:21:53] Um,

[01:21:54] and he was a real,

[01:21:56] like genuine Liberty movement guy.

[01:21:59] Um,

[01:22:01] who,

[01:22:02] uh,

[01:22:02] also cared a lot about that Alaska firearms act.

[01:22:06] Um,

[01:22:07] but he,

[01:22:09] ultimately created a militia.

[01:22:11] And if you do that,

[01:22:12] the government tends to come after you with everything they fucking have.

[01:22:16] Yeah.

[01:22:16] He is a perfect example.

[01:22:18] I really,

[01:22:19] really can't stand it.

[01:22:21] Um,

[01:22:22] I mean,

[01:22:23] they'll,

[01:22:23] they'll do anything.

[01:22:24] They can,

[01:22:25] they went after Schaefer's kids.

[01:22:28] They,

[01:22:28] they said in their own reports,

[01:22:30] their goal was to instigate him through OCS to try to be violent.

[01:22:35] I think they wanted to put a bullet in his fucking head.

[01:22:37] I don't think they ever wanted that guy to survive.

[01:22:40] They put him in what is the equivalent of no man's land of prisons and one of their black boxes over there in the middle flyover country where no one can go visit him in a,

[01:22:52] prison that literally has only ever had one journalist in it.

[01:22:55] And that journalist was immediately put on a no fly list and put on two government watch lists.

[01:23:01] And it's like,

[01:23:02] yeah,

[01:23:03] this is,

[01:23:03] this is,

[01:23:04] this is the,

[01:23:05] this is where that guy gets sent.

[01:23:06] He was sent to a recorrection fucking camp.

[01:23:10] Uh,

[01:23:10] so I,

[01:23:11] I,

[01:23:11] I am hoping when he gets out of prison,

[01:23:14] he still has his wits about him and he sees that the world he is stepping into is 10 years later.

[01:23:19] And it's a much different place politically.

[01:23:22] Uh,

[01:23:23] cause we need people like him,

[01:23:24] frankly,

[01:23:25] uh,

[01:23:26] his messaging back in the day was great.

[01:23:28] So that's the kind of stuff I'd like to see return.

[01:23:30] You know,

[01:23:31] people like him,

[01:23:32] like Joe,

[01:23:33] people of that ilk that had this,

[01:23:35] this opinion that,

[01:23:37] uh,

[01:23:38] politics was lesser than the actual people who were here.

[01:23:42] And,

[01:23:43] uh,

[01:23:43] as far as political opinion,

[01:23:45] if you're not from the state of Alaska and you're telling us how to live,

[01:23:50] then your,

[01:23:50] uh,

[01:23:51] opinion should be about the same weight as toilet paper.

[01:23:57] So what,

[01:23:58] what would exactly,

[01:24:00] what would actually take in your opinion with,

[01:24:04] with what you know and with how everything is in your part of the country right now?

[01:24:11] What do you think it would actually take to get people interested in that?

[01:24:18] Like what,

[01:24:18] what's going to be that spark?

[01:24:20] Uh,

[01:24:21] even if it's a,

[01:24:21] a slow burning spark,

[01:24:23] what,

[01:24:24] what is going to get people interested in actually doing something like this?

[01:24:30] For Alaska.

[01:24:33] So I think the,

[01:24:34] the two biggest things that can affect it are,

[01:24:39] uh,

[01:24:39] markets,

[01:24:40] the economy,

[01:24:41] frankly,

[01:24:41] I think as people here realize that there's not as much money going around,

[01:24:46] the federal government has all this control.

[01:24:48] No one has land.

[01:24:49] Housing has become hard to get and expensive.

[01:24:51] Um,

[01:24:52] you're going to see a lot more people trying to figure out ways to fix that.

[01:24:55] I think the biggest one there is to take a lot of that federal land.

[01:24:58] Um,

[01:24:59] and I think that,

[01:25:00] that opens us up to a new sort of cultural movement that could reinvigorate that sort of,

[01:25:05] um,

[01:25:06] opinions.

[01:25:07] Um,

[01:25:08] secondly,

[01:25:09] I think that we're going to see a return,

[01:25:13] uh,

[01:25:13] a resurgence of some of that in general,

[01:25:15] just because of the political landscape.

[01:25:17] Um,

[01:25:18] the reality is Alaska is split sort of now on the political party line,

[01:25:24] Democrat,

[01:25:24] Republican.

[01:25:25] So regardless of what the people think in general,

[01:25:28] the actual state government is very much at odds with each other.

[01:25:32] And so what's going to happen is,

[01:25:35] um,

[01:25:36] these elections on a national scale are affecting the state government and are frankly going to rip it apart.

[01:25:43] Um,

[01:25:44] you know,

[01:25:44] there's a lot of Republicans and Democrats who will not make it through if Kamala is elected or if Trump is elected,

[01:25:51] either side of that fence.

[01:25:53] Um,

[01:25:53] so you're going to see a lot of shifting in state governments,

[01:25:57] I think,

[01:25:57] regardless after this election.

[01:25:59] Um,

[01:25:59] if Kamala wins,

[01:26:01] I think you're going to see a shift in places like Alaska.

[01:26:04] Um,

[01:26:05] certainly because,

[01:26:06] uh,

[01:26:07] the federal government will see,

[01:26:09] uh,

[01:26:10] that they have a lot more opportunity to take advantage of the state,

[01:26:13] frankly.

[01:26:14] Um,

[01:26:15] you know,

[01:26:16] with Trump in office,

[01:26:17] some of the,

[01:26:18] the positives,

[01:26:20] I think,

[01:26:20] to Trump being in office nationally are that he seemed to really not give a fuck about Alaska or pay attention to it at all.

[01:26:28] And when he did,

[01:26:30] it was always involving something like the oil industry or the gas industry,

[01:26:34] which was ultimately mostly positive stuff that helped us out for the most part.

[01:26:39] Kamala Harris,

[01:26:40] Joe Biden,

[01:26:41] those types,

[01:26:42] um,

[01:26:42] and really Kamala Harris specifically because she's far more progressive than Biden is.

[01:26:47] If you actually look into her politics will be ultimately worse for Alaska than Trump,

[01:26:53] in my opinion.

[01:26:54] Yeah.

[01:26:54] That being said,

[01:26:56] Trump ain't great on those issues either.

[01:26:58] And ignoring Alaska isn't the same as giving us back our fucking land and freedoms.

[01:27:02] And I don't think he's going to be the one to do that.

[01:27:04] So ultimately we're in a perspective,

[01:27:07] in my opinion,

[01:27:07] where both sides are going to screw us and either side winning is going to sort of shift the political landscape here pretty deeply.

[01:27:16] Um,

[01:27:17] at least I expect it to.

[01:27:19] Hopefully that includes me shaking things up and winning a seat from a Republican over here,

[01:27:24] but you know,

[01:27:24] we'll see.

[01:27:26] Right.

[01:27:27] So,

[01:27:27] and we'll start wrapping up here.

[01:27:29] So I don't keep you too long.

[01:27:31] I know it's your day off.

[01:27:32] So I would like you to be able to enjoy some of it.

[01:27:36] And I got to do some more.

[01:27:38] I got to record a bunch of,

[01:27:39] uh,

[01:27:40] radio stuff today.

[01:27:42] Oh,

[01:27:42] fun.

[01:27:44] Um,

[01:27:45] but one thing that I've,

[01:27:48] I've been thinking about a lot lately.

[01:27:50] One thing that I've been concerned about is like how,

[01:27:55] how different things are from even just how they were 20,

[01:28:00] 30 years ago.

[01:28:01] Um,

[01:28:03] where it seems as though the,

[01:28:06] the independent spirit that is considered to be what the American spirit is,

[01:28:12] um,

[01:28:13] the defiant spirit,

[01:28:16] the,

[01:28:16] the spirit that says,

[01:28:18] um,

[01:28:19] well,

[01:28:19] that that's all fine,

[01:28:20] well,

[01:28:21] and good,

[01:28:21] but I'm going to just do this anyway.

[01:28:24] I guess the,

[01:28:25] the outlaw,

[01:28:26] um,

[01:28:28] the big difference between a,

[01:28:30] uh,

[01:28:31] like a gang member,

[01:28:32] a mafia member,

[01:28:33] a,

[01:28:33] a criminal and an outlaw is that a,

[01:28:37] a criminal will betray their own,

[01:28:39] uh,

[01:28:40] their own morals and ethics,

[01:28:42] um,

[01:28:43] for whatever means.

[01:28:44] However,

[01:28:45] there is no honor.

[01:28:46] There is no honor among thieves.

[01:28:48] Correct.

[01:28:49] So,

[01:28:49] so the outlaw will stand by,

[01:28:52] uh,

[01:28:52] what is right,

[01:28:53] regardless of like what the law is.

[01:28:55] Do you,

[01:28:56] do you think that,

[01:28:58] um,

[01:29:00] as times are today,

[01:29:02] that we have less of that spirit and that it is,

[01:29:06] um,

[01:29:08] going to be harder to get people back to that?

[01:29:13] I think that spirit is there,

[01:29:16] but it's shifted priority.

[01:29:18] Um,

[01:29:19] you know,

[01:29:20] I,

[01:29:20] I,

[01:29:20] you take somebody who's our age,

[01:29:22] take somebody who's like,

[01:29:23] you know,

[01:29:23] a 25 year old American working a 40 hour week job.

[01:29:28] Um,

[01:29:29] I'm going to guess that guy is going home at some point,

[01:29:33] sitting on his computer.

[01:29:34] Maybe he's downloading a song illegally.

[01:29:36] Maybe he's,

[01:29:37] um,

[01:29:38] streaming something to his computer from one,

[01:29:40] two,

[01:29:41] three movies,

[01:29:41] or he's torrenting something.

[01:29:43] Right.

[01:29:44] So those are all things that we do,

[01:29:46] but are criminal,

[01:29:47] technically speaking,

[01:29:49] right there.

[01:29:49] They're outlawed,

[01:29:50] um,

[01:29:51] from a,

[01:29:51] from a government perspective.

[01:29:53] Um,

[01:29:54] you know,

[01:29:54] maybe you've got a server who doesn't report all the tips,

[01:29:57] right?

[01:29:58] I've worked in three restaurants.

[01:29:59] I've seen a hell of a lot of that.

[01:30:01] Um,

[01:30:03] you know,

[01:30:03] uh,

[01:30:04] you've seen,

[01:30:05] you know,

[01:30:06] whatever the case may be,

[01:30:07] right.

[01:30:07] The populace on average,

[01:30:09] I think the number was what,

[01:30:11] something like they commit three crimes on a daily basis or commit,

[01:30:14] you know,

[01:30:14] a number of felonies on a day,

[01:30:16] on a daily basis,

[01:30:17] technically.

[01:30:17] Uh,

[01:30:18] so all of that stuff,

[01:30:20] you know,

[01:30:21] I think exists still.

[01:30:22] So there's,

[01:30:23] there's obviously,

[01:30:24] uh,

[01:30:24] a sentiment of that,

[01:30:25] that still survives on the larger scale.

[01:30:29] Although what used to exist is sort of this opinion of natural rights,

[01:30:34] the opinion of sort of,

[01:30:36] um,

[01:30:37] asserted rights,

[01:30:37] this idea that you're going to,

[01:30:39] you know,

[01:30:39] if you don't use it,

[01:30:40] you'll lose it kind of idea that certainly went away.

[01:30:42] And I think that although it didn't go away,

[01:30:45] it shifted into that stuff.

[01:30:47] And so I think that nature is still there.

[01:30:50] It's just masked.

[01:30:51] It's completely been,

[01:30:52] uh,

[01:30:53] glazed over by the government and by just years and years and years of

[01:30:59] cultural disillusion and the dilution of what is actual American

[01:31:06] existence.

[01:31:07] Like you stop people and ask them what it means to be American.

[01:31:12] And I don't think people have a very good answer to that question anymore.

[01:31:16] Like when people ask me what it means to be an Alaskan,

[01:31:19] I can give a pretty decent answer to that question,

[01:31:22] but I don't see great answers given anymore for that question from a

[01:31:27] national American perspective.

[01:31:29] Now if I say,

[01:31:30] Hey,

[01:31:30] what does it mean to be,

[01:31:31] um,

[01:31:33] you know,

[01:31:34] from Florida or from Utah or from,

[01:31:36] you know,

[01:31:37] uh,

[01:31:38] you know,

[01:31:38] California,

[01:31:38] even,

[01:31:39] you know,

[01:31:39] you're talking to a leftist,

[01:31:40] they'll give you an answer.

[01:31:42] Um,

[01:31:42] but when you ask this same person,

[01:31:44] what it means to be un-American,

[01:31:46] the answer is diluted.

[01:31:48] It's,

[01:31:49] it's become less,

[01:31:50] uh,

[01:31:50] pressing,

[01:31:51] less important to people.

[01:31:52] I think a lot of that has to do with the immigration thing,

[01:31:55] you know,

[01:31:56] don't shoot the messenger,

[01:31:58] but I don't think it's good to necessarily import a bunch of people who

[01:32:01] don't have anything to do with our culture.

[01:32:03] Um,

[01:32:04] you know,

[01:32:04] and from an Alaskan perspective,

[01:32:07] it's doubly so,

[01:32:08] because not only are you importing people from other countries that don't

[01:32:13] know our culture,

[01:32:14] but then you're importing them from the U S which they already don't know to

[01:32:18] Alaska where they know even less.

[01:32:20] So it's like,

[01:32:22] we're working three degrees of Kevin Bacon here and I'm,

[01:32:26] I'm not enjoying it.

[01:32:28] Yeah.

[01:32:29] I mean,

[01:32:29] there,

[01:32:30] there is something to be said that there is a concerted effort to destroy

[01:32:36] our history and our culture.

[01:32:41] Um,

[01:32:42] you know,

[01:32:42] I,

[01:32:42] I've even heard the,

[01:32:44] the expression that,

[01:32:46] um,

[01:32:46] there is no American culture.

[01:32:48] Uh,

[01:32:49] usually cultures pointed more towards white people.

[01:32:53] Um,

[01:32:53] especially these days because apparently everything has to be race,

[01:32:56] even though it's,

[01:32:57] yeah,

[01:32:57] it's all gotta be race based.

[01:32:59] Otherwise it doesn't count.

[01:33:00] Right.

[01:33:01] Even though it's like just as important as the color of your shoes.

[01:33:04] Uh,

[01:33:05] well,

[01:33:05] it's,

[01:33:05] it's also funny for Alaska because it's like,

[01:33:09] yeah,

[01:33:09] this,

[01:33:09] a lot of the settlers who came here in the,

[01:33:11] the mining period were white.

[01:33:13] A lot of them are Mexicans too.

[01:33:15] A lot of them were Dutch and German and Irish and Chinese and Korean.

[01:33:20] And not to mention the fact that the populace was already here.

[01:33:23] We're not white.

[01:33:25] Nate,

[01:33:25] like the natives aren't Siberians.

[01:33:27] So,

[01:33:28] you know,

[01:33:30] so,

[01:33:31] I mean,

[01:33:33] obviously there,

[01:33:34] there is a desire to get rid of that because I mean,

[01:33:37] that's one of the largest,

[01:33:39] uh,

[01:33:40] parts.

[01:33:42] Of the,

[01:33:43] yeah.

[01:33:43] People just,

[01:33:44] people think it's race based.

[01:33:46] I think it's cultural based.

[01:33:47] I think these people don't,

[01:33:49] it's,

[01:33:49] I'm not saying these people don't belong here because of their color of their skin or where they come from.

[01:33:55] far from it.

[01:33:56] In fact,

[01:33:57] I think that those people by definition over time do belong here if they can get here properly.

[01:34:03] Um,

[01:34:03] and under the right channels,

[01:34:05] but I don't think that,

[01:34:06] um,

[01:34:07] picking people up and under the welfare state and basically throwing them into a new environment is going to be good for the people already here or those people for that matter.

[01:34:16] Um,

[01:34:17] so it's,

[01:34:18] it's just,

[01:34:18] it's a double-edged sword of that's being like stabbed in our back.

[01:34:23] Repetibly.

[01:34:25] And it,

[01:34:26] it definitely seems,

[01:34:28] you know,

[01:34:28] we've got decades and decades of government schooling,

[01:34:32] uh,

[01:34:34] decades of,

[01:34:35] uh,

[01:34:35] social demonization,

[01:34:37] all of these other things,

[01:34:38] because I don't know about you,

[01:34:40] but I,

[01:34:40] I see things like what is going on with,

[01:34:44] uh,

[01:34:44] North Carolina and the federal response to that.

[01:34:48] And.

[01:34:49] Oh,

[01:34:49] Hawaii just a little while ago.

[01:34:51] Yes.

[01:34:52] Uh,

[01:34:52] or the train that derailed,

[01:34:54] uh,

[01:34:55] little while before that.

[01:34:56] Right.

[01:34:57] Yeah.

[01:34:58] Or any of these things that are going on.

[01:35:00] And yet I still see people saying,

[01:35:04] I just saw somebody yesterday say that we need more regulation and we need big brother coming in and taking care of us.

[01:35:13] And that I am so far removed from that.

[01:35:16] I don't understand why that,

[01:35:18] uh,

[01:35:19] that attitude.

[01:35:20] Well,

[01:35:20] and you know,

[01:35:21] I'll give that same criticism to some of the people in my own movement.

[01:35:25] And I think some of the libertarians out there who talk about anti-war issues.

[01:35:28] So one of my big problems is,

[01:35:30] you know,

[01:35:31] you've got all these people out there covering these,

[01:35:33] the,

[01:35:33] the Israel Palestine stuff,

[01:35:35] frankly,

[01:35:35] because from a libertarian perspective,

[01:35:37] I think it gets clicks from both sides of the aisle.

[01:35:39] So I think it's a lot of this stuff is generating our people just wanting to generate views and clicks.

[01:35:45] And I think that there are a lot of other issues that could be covered by these people with big platforms that aren't just the constant same thing.

[01:35:53] Hey,

[01:35:53] we're fighting a war.

[01:35:54] We're funding these people.

[01:35:55] Yeah,

[01:35:55] we've been doing that for like 40 years.

[01:35:58] So this isn't really anything new.

[01:36:00] And you know what is new?

[01:36:01] Like a bunch of Americans being deeply impoverished,

[01:36:04] the,

[01:36:05] the inflation,

[01:36:06] all of this stuff that none of these big libertarian talking heads are really covering anymore because they're too busy with their own heads up their ass getting,

[01:36:13] you know,

[01:36:13] views.

[01:36:14] I think that's frankly dumb.

[01:36:16] And I think all of them will end up doing all of the other libertarians a disservice.

[01:36:20] I've sort of moved out of the,

[01:36:23] the political side of the national libertarian thing.

[01:36:27] I'm just sort of over it.

[01:36:28] I'm focusing on state issues,

[01:36:29] focusing on Alaska only at this point.

[01:36:33] You know,

[01:36:34] if somebody from national wants something for me or they want something from my state,

[01:36:37] they can come talk to me.

[01:36:39] I do sit on the board for the state party and you know,

[01:36:44] I support the libertarian party here wholeheartedly,

[01:36:46] but I think the national party has a lot to be desired.

[01:36:50] I completely agree.

[01:36:52] Um,

[01:36:53] in my,

[01:36:54] in my opinion,

[01:36:55] uh,

[01:36:56] the greatest thing that is possibly going on right now is Angela sending,

[01:37:02] um,

[01:37:04] Oh,

[01:37:05] the,

[01:37:05] the FOIA request.

[01:37:07] I think that's the best thing possible.

[01:37:09] I think that is amazing.

[01:37:11] And I absolutely love that.

[01:37:13] Um,

[01:37:13] I think it's good.

[01:37:14] I don't know anything will come of it.

[01:37:16] I don't think anything's going to come of it.

[01:37:18] I don't know if anything will.

[01:37:20] I,

[01:37:21] I think I'll already,

[01:37:22] a lot has already come from it.

[01:37:24] Uh,

[01:37:24] the answer she got back was like,

[01:37:27] so telling,

[01:37:28] um,

[01:37:30] exactly what does come of it.

[01:37:32] I don't know.

[01:37:33] Um,

[01:37:34] but I do believe that the libertarian party is at least nationally is completely misguided.

[01:37:44] Um,

[01:37:44] well,

[01:37:45] I think it's co-opted.

[01:37:46] I think it's worse than misguided.

[01:37:48] I think that to a certain degree,

[01:37:50] it's,

[01:37:51] I don't trust the national libertarian party.

[01:37:56] We'll put it that way.

[01:37:57] And I don't think I can until I have a reason to like my,

[01:38:03] my perspective is like,

[01:38:05] and I've said this for a while,

[01:38:06] but they've done virtually nothing for Alaska,

[01:38:09] right?

[01:38:10] Like everything that's happened in Alaska from a libertarian perspective has been done by the libertarian party here,

[01:38:17] or just liberty loving individuals.

[01:38:19] It wasn't done by the national party.

[01:38:21] They don't talk about Alaska.

[01:38:23] They don't talk about Alaskan issues.

[01:38:25] They don't mention our state existing.

[01:38:27] Um,

[01:38:28] and we don't have a big social media presence.

[01:38:30] So there is zero reason realistically for us to really have much to do with them at all.

[01:38:35] Other than the fact that they hold our name.

[01:38:38] Um,

[01:38:38] and from my perspective,

[01:38:40] unless they're doing something to better our party in the state or to put our legs forward into some other thing that we can be doing,

[01:38:49] that's good.

[01:38:49] Then there's zero benefit to even really getting involved with them.

[01:38:53] Uh,

[01:38:54] because everybody who gets involved with them seems to have problems at some point.

[01:39:00] And,

[01:39:01] uh,

[01:39:02] you know,

[01:39:02] Angela's fine.

[01:39:03] I've had,

[01:39:04] I've had a couple conversations with Angela.

[01:39:06] I've had conversations with,

[01:39:07] um,

[01:39:08] her husband,

[01:39:09] um,

[01:39:11] uh,

[01:39:11] who's really great guy.

[01:39:12] Like he's really nice.

[01:39:14] I had multiple conversations with him at the convention.

[01:39:16] Um,

[01:39:18] I just don't get it.

[01:39:20] I don't get some of the decisions that have been made at the top level of the party.

[01:39:25] Um,

[01:39:26] I don't understand,

[01:39:27] you know,

[01:39:28] I know politics pretty fucking well.

[01:39:31] Like it's literally my entire life from a,

[01:39:34] from a hobby perspective,

[01:39:35] all that.

[01:39:36] Like I don't do any hobbies anymore.

[01:39:38] That is my hobby.

[01:39:38] I pick up a book and read,

[01:39:41] um,

[01:39:41] you know?

[01:39:41] And so I,

[01:39:43] I consider myself pretty well read on this stuff.

[01:39:46] All of the things that were done with Trump,

[01:39:49] all of the things that I get at all.

[01:39:51] I,

[01:39:51] I understand those decisions.

[01:39:52] I support a lot of those decisions,

[01:39:56] but as a whole,

[01:39:58] are we any better off right now than we were two,

[01:40:02] three,

[01:40:02] four,

[01:40:03] five,

[01:40:03] six years ago?

[01:40:04] I don't know if that's true from an Alaskan perspective.

[01:40:08] I can say there's been zero change.

[01:40:12] I don't know if there's been any change in Utah.

[01:40:14] I talked to people in Florida.

[01:40:16] I don't think there's been any change.

[01:40:17] So the question is,

[01:40:21] what have we actually seen as a benefit of having a new chair and having this new structure that we all fought for?

[01:40:29] See my,

[01:40:30] my personal messaging stuff.

[01:40:32] That's pretty much it.

[01:40:33] Like from my perspective,

[01:40:34] it's messaging.

[01:40:34] That's been it.

[01:40:35] My,

[01:40:36] my personal opinion is,

[01:40:37] is that,

[01:40:38] um,

[01:40:40] the opportunity for having Trump come to our,

[01:40:43] uh,

[01:40:44] national convention is what was a chance.

[01:40:48] Uh,

[01:40:48] and this pisses me off more than almost anything is that the people who were there,

[01:40:53] largely not everyone.

[01:40:55] Um,

[01:40:55] um,

[01:40:57] the people there didn't really take into account the fact that having Trump there means that everyone that follows Trump will have their eyes on us.

[01:41:09] Yeah.

[01:41:10] For three days.

[01:41:11] We had every major media outlet on the eyes of the libertarian party for three days.

[01:41:19] And that was our chance to either do the best that we could with it or just squander it.

[01:41:26] And I think that that opportunity was squandered.

[01:41:30] Um,

[01:41:30] and I think it was largely just because of a bunch of,

[01:41:33] uh,

[01:41:34] you know,

[01:41:35] cry baby,

[01:41:36] leftist libertarians wanting to boo Trump,

[01:41:40] which not saying he shouldn't have been booed.

[01:41:42] He should have,

[01:41:42] but there's a way to do things in a way,

[01:41:45] not to do things.

[01:41:46] And when you have every major media outlet looking at you,

[01:41:50] reporting on you for the next week,

[01:41:52] you want to make the most of what you had.

[01:41:55] And we could have utilized that for so much more than what was actually,

[01:42:00] uh,

[01:42:01] what was actually done.

[01:42:03] Well,

[01:42:03] I think a perfect example is that,

[01:42:05] I mean,

[01:42:05] I was second row during his speech for that.

[01:42:09] Um,

[01:42:10] I think a perfect example of it is the fact that like,

[01:42:13] uh,

[01:42:15] you know,

[01:42:15] the people that were there booing were booing things.

[01:42:17] They didn't even understand.

[01:42:18] They weren't,

[01:42:19] they,

[01:42:19] you know,

[01:42:20] the,

[01:42:20] the crowd,

[01:42:21] it should have shown people,

[01:42:23] frankly,

[01:42:24] it should have opened people's eyes to the fact that a lot of the people

[01:42:27] that think themselves to be very intelligent are and a good position of the

[01:42:32] people who have been inflated is sort of talking heads in the Liberty

[01:42:36] movement.

[01:42:37] Don't really deserve the positions they've been given,

[01:42:39] frankly.

[01:42:40] Right.

[01:42:40] Um,

[01:42:41] you know,

[01:42:41] right.

[01:42:41] I,

[01:42:41] I,

[01:42:42] a lot of people had a lot of blame going around during the convention and I

[01:42:47] have kept my mouth securely fastened for all of this.

[01:42:52] Um,

[01:42:53] but you know,

[01:42:53] I have a lot of issue with frankly,

[01:42:56] you know,

[01:42:57] I'll put this out there,

[01:42:58] but I have a lot of issue with Rechtenwald for what he did.

[01:43:01] I think he made really stupid decisions and people should have an issue

[01:43:04] with that.

[01:43:05] Uh,

[01:43:06] I think Dave,

[01:43:07] uh,

[01:43:07] certainly really fucked over a lot of people.

[01:43:10] Um,

[01:43:12] but I think at the same time,

[01:43:14] there are a lot of people who are allowing Rechtenwald and Dave to take the

[01:43:20] brunt of the blame.

[01:43:22] When in reality,

[01:43:22] there was a lot of other people behind the scenes that should be taking a lot

[01:43:26] of that blame and maybe even a hundred percent.

[01:43:29] Um,

[01:43:30] and some of those people aren't connected to things anymore.

[01:43:33] Some of them are,

[01:43:34] some of them have got new stuff.

[01:43:36] It's just the whole thing in general.

[01:43:38] I'm not a big fan of because what it reminds me of is what happens when a bunch of people

[01:43:44] fuck up in the Democrat or Republican party and they get shifted around like pedophiles

[01:43:48] in the Catholic church.

[01:43:50] And I'm not a fan of it.

[01:43:52] Right.

[01:43:52] It's stupid.

[01:43:53] And it's a dumb way to act.

[01:43:56] Um,

[01:43:56] because if you've got bad actors or you got bad fruit,

[01:44:00] you get rid of it.

[01:44:01] You don't keep it in the fridge.

[01:44:02] Um,

[01:44:03] you know,

[01:44:03] it just doesn't,

[01:44:04] uh,

[01:44:05] it doesn't make sense.

[01:44:07] You know,

[01:44:08] I think there are a lot of decisions that were made that don't.

[01:44:10] I,

[01:44:11] I completely agree.

[01:44:13] Um,

[01:44:13] there,

[01:44:15] I don't know.

[01:44:16] Like I said,

[01:44:16] we,

[01:44:16] we had these opportunities and we,

[01:44:19] we had a unique,

[01:44:21] uh,

[01:44:22] you know,

[01:44:22] once,

[01:44:23] once in a time opportunity for a bunch of different things.

[01:44:27] And it seemed like every time we turned around,

[01:44:32] whoever was letting somebody down,

[01:44:35] like the,

[01:44:35] the whole thing.

[01:44:38] And I think it kind of is because the very nature of a libertarian national party to begin

[01:44:45] with is a contradiction.

[01:44:47] Um,

[01:44:48] also I think one of the biggest aspects to this is how do moral people work morally within an immoral system?

[01:44:59] Like we're,

[01:45:00] we're trying,

[01:45:00] we're trying to be libertarians in a system that has been hijacked and catered to,

[01:45:07] uh,

[01:45:08] criminals for criminals by criminals.

[01:45:11] You know,

[01:45:11] it's like,

[01:45:12] I,

[01:45:13] I don't think that we could actually effectively work within that system.

[01:45:18] to the point,

[01:45:19] by the way,

[01:45:20] uh,

[01:45:21] to,

[01:45:21] to peg it to something happening as we speak to the point where two sides of the libertarian party right now are in legal battles,

[01:45:30] uh,

[01:45:31] that are being played out publicly on Twitter and shit.

[01:45:35] Now,

[01:45:35] again,

[01:45:36] the statement I just said,

[01:45:38] that we just glaze over and we hear it and we go,

[01:45:40] that's been happening all the time for the last like two years.

[01:45:43] But when I say that sentence,

[01:45:45] it should really like make people go,

[01:45:49] what the hell is going on?

[01:45:50] There are two libertarians right now suing each other,

[01:45:54] using the federal and state government as weapons against each other to try to bludgeon each other over the head.

[01:46:00] Right.

[01:46:01] that is insanity.

[01:46:02] The fact that we have a party from either side,

[01:46:06] I'm not taking a side here,

[01:46:08] I'm saying both of you dumb fucking groups of people,

[01:46:12] who both of which are unintelligent,

[01:46:14] stupid people,

[01:46:15] who are not paying attention to the environment you're in or the political world around you.

[01:46:19] You aren't using your fucking brain.

[01:46:22] Turn that shit on.

[01:46:23] You're both fighting against the same group of people.

[01:46:26] Even if you have the differing opinion on one issue or who should be on a fucking ballot

[01:46:31] or whatever horse shit reasoning you want to take,

[01:46:34] you're both currently using the weapon of the state.

[01:46:38] You're literally doing the thing that every libertarian from the 70s and 80s would have bludgeoned you over the head for.

[01:46:45] You're certainly not showing respect to people like Murray Rothbard, Ludwig von Mises,

[01:46:53] any of these people that we claim to like, Hans Hermann Haber,

[01:46:57] any of them, any of them, name one of them.

[01:47:00] Or any of the old timers who were still around from then.

[01:47:04] Yeah, I mean, it's insane.

[01:47:05] The founding people of the libertarian party,

[01:47:09] Richard Randolph, who was the first libertarian to hold major office,

[01:47:12] who did so in Alaska,

[01:47:15] Murrow,

[01:47:16] none of these people would have supported this shit.

[01:47:18] They would have laughed in your face if you had told them it would be happening now.

[01:47:22] Right.

[01:47:23] It's insane that we've allowed this to continue to happen

[01:47:26] and that people aren't talking about it.

[01:47:27] You know, one of my issues is you've got all these big libertarian accounts

[01:47:31] that are being completely silent on this problem.

[01:47:34] You don't have to be.

[01:47:35] You don't have to take a fucking side here.

[01:47:37] You can come out and say,

[01:47:38] you're both being idiots and I'm against this entire thing

[01:47:42] because you're using the federal government and state government

[01:47:45] to do what you're supposed to be fighting against.

[01:47:47] Right.

[01:47:48] Like, it just,

[01:47:48] it's mind-boggling to me.

[01:47:50] Like, and I think a big problem of it is the libertarian party

[01:47:53] just has too many fucking lawyers

[01:47:55] and so many of these lawyers believe that they're right about everything

[01:48:00] because that's sort of what they get taught to think like,

[01:48:03] but the problem there is that I'm not a lawyer

[01:48:05] and I'll tell you a bunch of them are fucking idiots.

[01:48:08] Yeah.

[01:48:08] I know law.

[01:48:09] I read a lot of legal stuff.

[01:48:11] That's one of my interests.

[01:48:14] And so much of the legal stuff that these people throw back and forth

[01:48:18] is absolutely useless.

[01:48:19] It means nothing.

[01:48:20] It's there simply to get people's attention.

[01:48:22] Right.

[01:48:22] You know, in the grand scale of things,

[01:48:24] none of these lawsuits mean fucking jack all anything.

[01:48:28] The only thing that any of this will do is harm both sides of the fence.

[01:48:34] It harms the libertarian party and the public eye.

[01:48:37] It harms everybody in the state parties

[01:48:39] because when you Google libertarian,

[01:48:41] the first thing that's going to come up is some horseshit lawsuit

[01:48:44] that nobody in the party actually gives a fuck about.

[01:48:47] Right.

[01:48:47] I'm just tired of it.

[01:48:49] I'm tired of the bickering back and forth.

[01:48:51] These people pretend like they actually care about fighting for liberty

[01:48:54] when they're not doing jack shit.

[01:48:56] Where are you in the individual states?

[01:48:58] You're sitting in the same place.

[01:49:00] You're not flying around.

[01:49:02] You're not traveling.

[01:49:03] You're not giving public speeches.

[01:49:04] You're not doing jack shit.

[01:49:06] Right.

[01:49:07] So I'm done with it.

[01:49:08] The national party does nothing.

[01:49:11] They have a headquarters.

[01:49:12] Nothing happens there.

[01:49:14] You could be holding weekly events, monthly events.

[01:49:18] Do something.

[01:49:20] And if it's a money issue,

[01:49:21] what the fuck is all the cash you just got during the convention worth

[01:49:24] if you don't do anything with it?

[01:49:26] What is the value of these RFK deals or any of this shit

[01:49:30] if you don't do anything with it?

[01:49:32] Is the only reason you make and raise money

[01:49:34] to spend it on conventions and one event every two fucking years?

[01:49:38] Because if that's the case, I think you're dumb.

[01:49:40] You know, why is it that no candidate in any individual state in Alaska

[01:49:44] has gotten any real support?

[01:49:46] Why is it that no individual candidate, I'm going to guess,

[01:49:48] in Utah has gotten much individual support?

[01:49:51] Right.

[01:49:52] So let's go down the list of states.

[01:49:54] Let's guess you hit 50 before you find one.

[01:49:58] This is the problem I have.

[01:49:59] Where, what does the national party actually fucking do?

[01:50:03] Other than become a media speaking head.

[01:50:05] Become the contact between a bunch of media people

[01:50:09] who we all hate and despise

[01:50:11] and want to be launched out of cannons into the stratosphere.

[01:50:15] So why do we value that?

[01:50:17] If all you are is a marketing tool,

[01:50:20] if you're just a vehicle to get our name in front of a media pundit,

[01:50:25] fuck you.

[01:50:27] I don't need my name in front of a media pundit,

[01:50:29] and if I did, I'd do it myself.

[01:50:31] The individual state parties can do that.

[01:50:33] They don't need a federal system to do that.

[01:50:38] And that is what the national party is attempting to become.

[01:50:41] They're attempting to become a federal government of the Libertarian Party.

[01:50:45] I'm not interested in it.

[01:50:46] They can take it and stick it.

[01:50:48] I couldn't agree more.

[01:50:51] You know, I've always said that

[01:50:52] the national party should be nothing more than maybe a mailbox.

[01:50:57] You know.

[01:50:58] Exactly.

[01:50:58] Whatever bare minimum legal requirement that we have to meet

[01:51:04] to still legally be able to do the things that we need to do as a party.

[01:51:11] Other than that,

[01:51:12] an education source,

[01:51:15] which it tries but fails.

[01:51:17] Which they keep saying they're doing,

[01:51:19] but this is what I'm more of talking about.

[01:51:21] It's like,

[01:51:21] if you're an education source,

[01:51:22] how much does it cost to send Angela McArdle,

[01:51:28] let's say,

[01:51:29] one or two other people that are in the party structure.

[01:51:33] What is it?

[01:51:34] They have Lynn Ulbrich, right?

[01:51:35] Yeah.

[01:51:36] Is in the party structure, right?

[01:51:38] So these people,

[01:51:38] get a couple of them every month

[01:51:40] or every two weeks

[01:51:42] to a new state

[01:51:43] to hold an event.

[01:51:44] You invite the political pundits

[01:51:46] that are running for office in that area

[01:51:48] out to that event to speak as well.

[01:51:50] So you get to give them support.

[01:51:51] And maybe while you're there,

[01:51:53] you hand them a nice check

[01:51:54] to donate to their fucking campaign

[01:51:55] while you're at it.

[01:51:57] Instead,

[01:51:57] they do nothing.

[01:51:59] They sit on a computer,

[01:52:01] they complain on Twitter,

[01:52:03] or they go to war in a fucking courtroom

[01:52:05] using the state as a weapon.

[01:52:06] It's all made up,

[01:52:08] unreality for shit.

[01:52:10] Yeah.

[01:52:11] Wasting all the funds.

[01:52:11] Wasting all the money

[01:52:12] that they suppose

[01:52:13] that they're raising so much up.

[01:52:14] It's all worthless.

[01:52:15] It's all a game.

[01:52:17] We're watching what is basically

[01:52:18] a game being played

[01:52:20] with a party structure.

[01:52:22] And everybody, I think,

[01:52:23] that actually realizes what it is,

[01:52:25] and this isn't a pro-Mises,

[01:52:28] anti-Mises,

[01:52:29] pro-right-wing libertarian,

[01:52:31] anti-left-wing libertarian.

[01:52:32] I am talking as a libertarian.

[01:52:35] That's it.

[01:52:36] Saying this is fucking stupid.

[01:52:38] And the way the party's been managed

[01:52:40] for the last 20 years

[01:52:41] has frankly been stupid.

[01:52:42] And I think that

[01:52:43] the people who tried to fix it,

[01:52:45] frankly,

[01:52:46] have done the same thing,

[01:52:49] if not just created a new version of it.

[01:52:53] No, I would have to agree.

[01:52:55] I mean,

[01:52:56] the state is still winning.

[01:53:00] Where's the win from national anywhere

[01:53:02] other than getting some people

[01:53:03] to speak places,

[01:53:04] which again,

[01:53:05] as we just talked about,

[01:53:06] the media was completely squandered in.

[01:53:08] So the few times

[01:53:10] you create these situations

[01:53:11] where you could get a leg up,

[01:53:13] because the people

[01:53:14] who are in charge of all this stuff

[01:53:15] don't know what they're doing,

[01:53:16] it's all fucked anyway.

[01:53:18] And maybe it's not

[01:53:19] because the people in charge

[01:53:20] don't know what they're doing.

[01:53:21] Maybe it's because

[01:53:22] the people in charge

[01:53:22] are being co-opted

[01:53:24] or are getting bad advice,

[01:53:25] or there are a bunch of feds

[01:53:27] been planted into the party.

[01:53:28] But all the better reason

[01:53:30] to not fucking deal with it.

[01:53:32] My personal opinion,

[01:53:34] I think it's all of it.

[01:53:36] I think there are people up there

[01:53:37] that don't know what they're doing.

[01:53:39] I think the people

[01:53:39] who do know what they're doing

[01:53:40] are being stopped.

[01:53:43] Drowned out.

[01:53:44] Yeah, drowned out.

[01:53:46] There's clearly fed implants,

[01:53:49] and there always have been,

[01:53:50] because a strong, unified,

[01:53:52] functional libertarian party

[01:53:54] would actually be a threat.

[01:53:58] I think it's a little bit

[01:54:00] of all of these things.

[01:54:02] Personally,

[01:54:03] I think the national party,

[01:54:06] if anything,

[01:54:07] should pretty much be used

[01:54:09] as a pro-liberty propaganda machine.

[01:54:11] That's it.

[01:54:12] Yep.

[01:54:13] And right now,

[01:54:16] they're doing none of that,

[01:54:17] in my opinion.

[01:54:18] They're just not.

[01:54:19] They're not even trying.

[01:54:20] And what they have been trying to do

[01:54:22] has failed.

[01:54:22] So you have to go,

[01:54:24] well,

[01:54:24] it's time to recalibrate.

[01:54:26] Where's the recalibration?

[01:54:27] Why is this happening?

[01:54:29] Like,

[01:54:30] pull the fucking plane up.

[01:54:32] Like, you know?

[01:54:33] Like,

[01:54:34] so it's just a,

[01:54:36] it's a fun,

[01:54:37] you know,

[01:54:38] dumpster fire to watch burn,

[01:54:39] I suppose,

[01:54:40] but it's unfortunate

[01:54:40] that I think that

[01:54:41] the rubble that'll be left behind

[01:54:43] will have to be picked up

[01:54:44] by whatever people are left over.

[01:54:46] You know?

[01:54:47] Right.

[01:54:48] you know?

[01:54:49] So there's two,

[01:54:51] there's,

[01:54:51] so that the first thing

[01:54:53] that I can say about this

[01:54:54] and we'll,

[01:54:54] we'll wrap up here.

[01:54:56] Um,

[01:54:57] one,

[01:54:57] one thing,

[01:54:58] the best thing I ever got out of the party

[01:55:01] was my friend group,

[01:55:03] meeting people like you.

[01:55:05] And that,

[01:55:06] that is by far the best thing

[01:55:09] that I have received from the party.

[01:55:11] Um,

[01:55:12] of course I've gotten some knowledge,

[01:55:13] which is great,

[01:55:14] but that I could have gotten that without.

[01:55:16] So.

[01:55:17] The network is great.

[01:55:18] Yeah.

[01:55:19] Oh yeah.

[01:55:20] And personally,

[01:55:22] I believe that the,

[01:55:22] the network that exists,

[01:55:24] we could be doing so much more with,

[01:55:26] um,

[01:55:27] we need to be building parallel economy

[01:55:30] with,

[01:55:31] uh,

[01:55:31] Liberty enclaves,

[01:55:33] basically turn all the state parties

[01:55:35] into our own gray and black market,

[01:55:39] uh,

[01:55:41] functioning society.

[01:55:42] So we're not so reliant upon the state

[01:55:45] who will do everything they can to starve us

[01:55:47] and to cut us off from water

[01:55:50] and all these other supplies.

[01:55:52] Fuck that.

[01:55:52] We already have the system in place.

[01:55:55] Let's be using it for that

[01:55:56] because eventually the state is coming after everyone

[01:55:59] and we have the network now.

[01:56:02] So let's,

[01:56:02] let's do that.

[01:56:03] Everyone's on the menu.

[01:56:04] Right.

[01:56:05] Right.

[01:56:06] And there are people out there,

[01:56:09] I mean,

[01:56:10] working to figure out how,

[01:56:12] uh,

[01:56:12] we,

[01:56:12] we could set up our own power grids.

[01:56:14] We could set up our,

[01:56:16] our own,

[01:56:16] uh,

[01:56:17] like utilities systems outside of the current system.

[01:56:21] I mean,

[01:56:21] there's all these great things going on

[01:56:24] and I personally can set my personal opinions aside.

[01:56:28] Um,

[01:56:29] because there,

[01:56:30] there's a lot of people in the party.

[01:56:31] I can't stand,

[01:56:32] absolutely cannot stand.

[01:56:34] But if there's anything I can do to work with them,

[01:56:38] to benefit the cause of Liberty,

[01:56:39] I don't have to be friends with them.

[01:56:41] If we were free,

[01:56:42] you know,

[01:56:44] That's not the point.

[01:56:45] And I,

[01:56:47] I think a lot of this high school name calling bullshit

[01:56:49] is really what's standing in the way.

[01:56:52] But what I hope comes from this

[01:56:55] is that

[01:56:56] this really does focus a lot more people

[01:56:59] inward to their state.

[01:57:01] And I think that has happened for the most part,

[01:57:03] maybe not,

[01:57:04] maybe not as strong as either of us would want,

[01:57:07] but I,

[01:57:08] I hope it keeps building

[01:57:09] because I think something can be salvaged